Loveless confusion.

[Kevin Jones]

There was a nice collection of Loveless knives at the A.G. Russell show, but unfortunately they were on display only and could not be handled...definitely my loss.

Kevin did you get a chance to see them?

Bob

Yes I did.
AG has an outstanding collection and loves to show and discuss his knives.

 

[KYJ]

Interestingly, the post before mentions square edges... this one looks pretty square to me. I've often thought that the Loveless handle looks kind of square, but to me this goes against the whole 'good in the hand' thing.

Though it is too natural now in custon knives, but early(70's-80's) custom knives have sometimes edged(sharp cornered, not be grinded off) square handles. Some stag handles of custom knives have sharp grinded corner. I remember the words of Mr. Loveless, no edge except for cutting edge should be round grinded. Also in the photograph of Mr. Cooper, the total shape of the handle is square, but the edge line is carefully round grinded. It is overall square shape, but comfortable to hand. I say again that it is very natural now in most of custom knives, but Mr. Loveless has been taking care with there very much, and rounded all the corner edges of his knife.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Here's a Loveless design "New York Special" made by Thad Buchanan.
He's creating some very nice Lovelsss style knives in my opinion.
These photos are from Nordic Knives website.

There's been some recent discussion on the NYS "snap style" sheath. These two photos also do a very good job of eliminating any confusion in that area.

 

[Professor]

A true Loveless novice here: I've never owned more than four Loveless' at a time (I'm not a rich man, and my Wife can only stand so much ), and will usually sell one to acquire another, more appealing-to-me Loveless. One of these days I hope to acquire a Delaware Maid. My current pieces: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597911&highlight=professor

At any rate, even through the chapters of Loveless knives (apprentices, etc.), there is that common theme that you've all touched upon nicely. There is a feel, a look, and a simplicity that is recurring, but that I love the most about Loveless knives.

To me, the "classic" Loveless knife that is so often done in other makers' renditions is the 4" drop point with a nickel silver bolster, green micarta scales with red "lipstick" liners, and nickel silver handle bolts; all with that characteristic contouring that you've mentioned. Variations on materials tend to occur, but the root style always tends to shine through.

You guys hit the nail on the head in regard to the mystique that exists as well. It's this mystique that drew me in, to be sure; this and the fact that Loveless knives are today so deeply rooted in knifemaking culture, as it were.

To a very different degree, fwiw, the same mystique exists with Chris Reeve Knives, specifically with the Sebenza. It is what it is to everyone else, but to me, it is user-grade perfection whose style has seen many interpretations over its near 20+ year life span.

Random thoughts, I know, and likely straying from the OP's comments on Loveless evolutions, but it's always cool to chime in on a Loveless thread. I've got a Joe Cordova-made chute knife that he made under the tutelege of Loveless in the early 1970's that if it weren't for the logo, I wouldn't know the difference; that was the basis for my tangent.

Kevin Jones, holler at me sometime. Not sure where you're at in Virginia, but I'm in Roanoke and love to talk knives over a beer if you're ever interested.

Y'all be cool.

Professor.

 

[irbailey]

If you can't stand the answers, don't ask the question.

One cannot describe balance, it can only be experienced. It is closely akin to a soft kiss from a beautiful woman, the solid thunk that mili-second after you've lined up the cross-hair and squeezed the trigger, the soft brush of a grandaughter's cheek when she hugs you goodnight, the vibration in your chest when the announcer says, "Gentlemen start you engines", the rush of seeing an F-15 turn vertical and go out of sight in full afterburner in seconds. You are right, Ian. It is all nonsense. But it is a nonsense that makes life worth living.

Perhaps I can best describe the indescribable in the words of a fellow Brit, Ian. The late Eward Oakshoot, the curator of the arms at the Tower of London, in a conversation with Hank Reinhardt, when Eward handed Hank a finely balanced sword from a time that often all that stood between a man and eternity was the balance of that piece of pointed steel. Hank was delighted with the exceptional balance, and Eward smiled at Hank. "It woos you to strike, doesn't it."

Your question was correctly and aptly answered--and you're still asking it. Forget the copies, handle a real Loveless and Moran and experience the education. Better yet, forgo the wannabes, save up, and buy a genuine example. Sometimes a single knife as your entire collection is far superior to a couple of dozen of the almosts.

Yes, nonsense, a subtle nuance that is easily missed, and by some never understood.

I understand what you're saying, I didn't mean any offence with my nonsense comment and I hope none was taken.

Let me put another question forward.

When a knife is posted on here, and to my eyes it looks identical to a Loveless, how do people who know and own Loveless knives justify saying it's not like a real Loveless?

Not by feel, that's for sure.

All I wish to do is learn. If it's possible to tell that a knife is different to another knife that looks virtually the same from a photograph, there must be more to it than feel alone. I appreciate the differences are subtle, and I may well be stupid for needing help to notice them, if I am I apologise, but I see no harm in wishing to learn what they are.

Ian

 

[David Sharp]

... with Ian.

It would be helpful to hear what many consider the differences. As an example and because pictures of chute knives are already posted; what are the minor/major differences between the of Loveless chutes and the other chutes? Is it just feel, fit/finish, balance, more/less tang taper; you get the idea. I too just want to learn, the holy grail of blades for me is the chute. I just finished my 4th knife and as my skills increase creating a good Loveless style chute would in my opinion be the pinnacle of knife making.

Thanks
David

 

[Kevin Jones]

A true Loveless novice here: I've never owned more than four Loveless' at a time (I'm not a rich man, and my Wife can only stand so much ), and will usually sell one to acquire another, more appealing-to-me Loveless. One of these days I hope to acquire a Delaware Maid. My current pieces: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597911&highlight=professor

At any rate, even through the chapters of Loveless knives (apprentices, etc.), there is that common theme that you've all touched upon nicely. There is a feel, a look, and a simplicity that is recurring, but that I love the most about Loveless knives.

To me, the "classic" Loveless knife that is so often done in other makers' renditions is the 4" drop point with a nickel silver bolster, green micarta scales with red "lipstick" liners, and nickel silver handle bolts; all with that characteristic contouring that you've mentioned. Variations on materials tend to occur, but the root style always tends to shine through.

You guys hit the nail on the head in regard to the mystique that exists as well. It's this mystique that drew me in, to be sure; this and the fact that Loveless knives are today so deeply rooted in knifemaking culture, as it were.

To a very different degree, fwiw, the same mystique exists with Chris Reeve Knives, specifically with the Sebenza. It is what it is to everyone else, but to me, it is user-grade perfection whose style has seen many interpretations over its near 20+ year life span.

Random thoughts, I know, and likely straying from the OP's comments on Loveless evolutions, but it's always cool to chime in on a Loveless thread. I've got a Joe Cordova-made chute knife that he made under the tutelege of Loveless in the early 1970's that if it weren't for the logo, I wouldn't know the difference; that was the basis for my tangent.

Kevin Jones, holler at me sometime. Not sure where you're at in Virginia, but I'm in Roanoke and love to talk knives over a beer if you're ever interested.

Y'all be cool.

Professor.

Hi Professor. I live just north of Richmond and would love to get together sometime and talk knives. Kj1056@aol.com

 

[Kohai999]

I appreciate the differences are subtle, and I may well be stupid for needing help to notice them, if I am I apologise, but I see no harm in wishing to learn what they are.Ian

Not stupid Ian, but maybe an untrained or simply less discerning eye. IF a knife is to scale in a good photo, I can usually see if it has a deep hollow grind, crisp or soft plunges and a thick or thin edge behind the secondary bevel(the sharpened part)...coupled with having held thousands and thousands of knives, that photo will inform what the knife probably MIGHT feel like, but we all get very surprised from time to time.

... with Ian.

It would be helpful to hear what many consider the differences. As an example and because pictures of chute knives are already posted; what are the minor/major differences between the of Loveless chutes and the other chutes? Is it just feel, fit/finish, balance, more/less tang taper; you get the idea. I too just want to learn, the holy grail of blades for me is the chute. I just finished my 4th knife and as my skills increase creating a good Loveless style chute would in my opinion be the pinnacle of knife making.

Thanks
David

I'm really starting to lose what little patience I have.

If you want to learn, you have to look and feel....YOU....HAVE....TO...LOOK...AND...FEEL.

It is both intellectually and physically lazy to ask people on an internet forum to digest however many experiences that they have had physically comparing and contrasting the work of one maker to the many working in that maker's style and then vomit that information out for your nourishment. You are not a baby bird.

Get a bunch of books, look at the wealth of information on the internet, and then go to a show or shows, like Bruce suggested above, and handle as many knives as you can. THEN ask questions.



Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[KYJ]

About 20 years ago, I started to collect knives, and made effort to see and grip as many knives as possible.
Just in these days, I gripped Loveless knife for the first time.
Very fortunately for me, it was the first original chute knife which Harry Archer ordered and carried with him.
The impression was...just like plain short bar.

When I grip a knife, I feel many from each part of the knife.
"The handle is thin",　"The guard is large"...etc..
But my impression of gripping Loveless knife was strong and just simple...feels like I grip a short plain bar.
It was the first time I felt like that.

I have been collecting knives for long years.
But I can not forget the feeling when I grip the Loveless knife for the first time.
As many people would say, there are several features of making period, Delawere, Lawndale, and Riverside, or several features from making partners.
But I believe that the most important point which Mr. Loveless would stick to is "comfortableness from unity".
To make unity of all parts, he grind the blade, guard, and handle.
I have a few of his knives, and when I grip them, and I can feel his will for "unity", I can see the grinding for it.
He likes micarta handle because it gives him freedom of grinding more than natural material.
Sometimes it may obstruct the "good-looking" of knife.
However, he make the comfortableness of the knife give priority.

I believe that it is the most important difference of Loveless knife from other knives.

 

[David Sharp]

Thank you everybody but Kohai999. :thumbdn:

It must be very nice to sit on your hill and lose patience with us mere mortals. As I stated before I am making an effort to learn everything I can; unfortunatley I can't go pick up a Loveless at the corner store to caress and hold. I am very happy that you have been able to hold thousands of knives and be so discerning.

I will say that I am very happy that most all in the knife world have lots of patience so that us noobies can grow and hope to achieve a reputation of competence.

I notice that Kohai999 you also live in SoCal, if you can muster some patience and do own a Loveless I would definitley love to meet sometime so I can feel the difference.

 

[Kohai999]

I will say that I am very happy that most all in the knife world have lots of patience so that us noobies can grow and hope to achieve a reputation of competence.

I notice that Kohai999 you also live in SoCal, if you can muster some patience and do own a Loveless I would definitley love to meet sometime so I can feel the difference.

It's always good to have goals.

Be happy to bring my single Loveless Dixon fighter for you to handle....be even happier to show you around Dan Delavan's Anaheim show in October where there are likely to be many, many examples for you to look at and ask questions about.....if I can climb off my hill.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Lorien]

It is both intellectually and physically lazy to ask people on an internet forum to digest however many experiences that they have had physically comparing and contrasting the work of one maker to the many working in that maker's style and then vomit that information out for your nourishment. You are not a baby bird.

Sorry, but that is just priceless Garsson:thumbup:

 

[David Sharp]

If we are talking about the Plaza show I think it's in Costa Mesa.

 

[Kohai999]

If we are talking about the Plaza show I think it's in Costa Mesa.

When I checked back in May, Dan was putting out Anaheim as a possibility. The Costa Mesa Hilton is what I was hoping for and will be there on Saturday, as I am sure Dave Ellis will be as well, and will have quite a few Loveless knives.

See you then.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[JParanee]

There ya go again STeven making friends again

Thanks to all for the fantastic pics and great conversation.

 

[Lorien]

I really like a Loveless styled knife from someone other than the Loveless shop that employs a logo not specifically reminiscent of the Loveless branding.

 

[irbailey]

Message recieved loud and clear.:thumbup:

Thanks for all your comments.

Ian

 

[Kevin Jones]

I really like a Loveless styled knife from someone other than the Loveless shop that employs a logo not specifically reminiscent of the Loveless branding.

Yes, I totally agree. If a maker is going to closely follow another maker's designs then I feel it's important for that maker to grab some degree of uniqueness or separate himself.

I'm impressed with Thad after speaking with him a little, examining and purchasing one of his knives.

 

[A. G. Russell]

He began making knives in 1954 and by 1967 had become the finest designer of Hunting and combat knives in the World and was almost unknown. By 1969 he was one of the best known knife makers in the United States. In the Summer of 1970 he and two friends founded the Knifemakers Guild and he became it's first Secretary. Robert Waldorf Loveless b. 1929 d. 2010: The best known, most copied knifemaker in history. I have lost a friend.

 

[ELDE]

He began making knives in 1954 and by 1967 had become the finest designer of Hunting and combat knives in the World and was almost unknown. By 1969 he was one of the best known knife makers in the United States. In the Summer of 1970 he and two friends founded the Knifemakers Guild and he became it's first Secretary. Robert Waldorf Loveless b. 1929 d. 2010: The best known, most copied knifemaker in history. I have lost a friend.

All is said and very well said...

Elde