Lower End Steel in Traditionals?

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thesouthernguitarist

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Maybe I am missing something, but in my experience Traditional knives do not typically come with very high quality steel. I do happen to own a few "tactical" style knives, and honestly feel that the steel is much higher quality in them. Why do companies like, Case not make Traditional knives with modern steel, such as S30v? Don't get me wrong, I love Traditional knives, but am curious as to why companies do not do this in atleast a few models. I understand that it's not very "traditional" at all, but I'd certainly purchase one if they produced them. Maybe someone could explain this to me?
 
What do you think is lacking in Queen's D2? (Beyond a bit higher level of corrosion resistance in the "true" stainless steels.)

Case, aside from the Bose collaborations, does (iirc) produce some knives with 154-CM. (If you don't think that's good steel, talk to Rick Menefee, Bret Dowell and Kerry Hampton.)

440C, used by GEC, is an excellent stainless and is still preferred by some high end custom makers.

I'll let Frank (knarfeng) go over the attributes and abilities of some of the "lower" end steels. Might make you think twice about denigrating them.

Each steel (carbon or stainless) has its pluses and minuses. But in my opinion it's not worth getting caught up (too much) in the steel hype.

(And the traditional knife manufacturers might turn around and ask the companies you referred to above why they don't produce slipjoints. They're not easy to do right ;))
 
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There are a lot of reasons. To begin with, "tacticals" and such only have one blade -- many traditionals have two, three, or four blades - how much are you willing to pay? These "high end" steels are tough to both process and to heat treat - adding still more expense to the equation. Most of the "high end" steels are not available in the thinner stock required for traditional blades -- custom mill runs and/or custom processing would be required - more $$$$; nor are they available in the form used by many of the big slipjoint manufacturers - for example, Case uses huge rolls of thin precision spec'd sheet stock. Many multiblade slipjoints require the blades to be crinked (bent precisely near the tang) to fit the blades past each other in the frame -- most "high end" steels will NOT bend at high hardness without breaking - nor are they amenable to being "drawn back" to a lower hardness just at the tang area to allow such bending. (Note: Tony Bose does not use the "high end" steels in his multiblade folders (the ones that must be crinked) for just that reason.) Almost all of the "high end" steels laugh at anything but a diamond hone -- most traditional slipjoint guys like to know that they can get their knife back to popping sharp wherever they are and whatever they might be doing - a more common steel with a bit less abrasion resistance makes this a whole lot easier. Most "high end" steels have huge grain - this means getting that ultimate hair popping edge can be pretty difficult, while the good old common steels have a much finer grain - getting hair popping edges is no problem (along with much more ease in getting that edge back in the first place).
 
Very well said (and explained), Dwight! :thumbup:
 
I'm inclined to believe that, for the money, the existing steel selections (1095, 440A, 420HC, 440C, D2) are just fine in traditional knives. Traditionals aren't intended (or built) to be sharpened prybars, so something like S30V in a typically 'traditional' small, thin blade is overkill, so far as I'm concerned. Case, Buck, GEC, Queen and others have struck a pretty good balance between price, ease of sharpening, and edge durability. And many makers seem to be getting a lot more out of the 'low end' steels these days, with more refined & controlled heat treat processes, and more intelligent edge geometry (Buck's 420HC blades being a prime example). Building these knives in premium steels might seem pretty neat, but they're always a LOT more expensive. Might as well buy a custom, at that rate.

Case has, occasionally, released some patterns in 154CM (the 'Red Barnboard' series comes to mind). Even those ones, built on standard patterns & materials otherwise, came at a significant markup in price.

Edited to add:
While I was writing my reply, zerogee was composing a masterpiece of an explanation (again). Pretty well sums it all up. :thumbup:
 
Steel doesnt have as much to do with it as people think. Grinds and proper heat treat is were its at. Theyer are exceptions such as s30 and so on. Some of the best steel i have ever used was 440c it rc the same batch to batch and you could get it shaveing sharp easy. Most of the new high vandium steels are great and they hold a edge well ;however, when they get dull its pretty hard to get them sharp-sharp again. Most of it is b.s. . I have a 440c knife with tape around the handle that i have used maybe 10 year it roles around the bed of the pick-up and it rc @ 53 I think? I didnt sell it because of this. I have cut more fish bait, coyote bait with that knife than you could hall on a wheat truck and most of the time you just have to strop it. If two knives of the same steel and both have thin grinds i can tell if one has been cryoed. George the duckman told me once "i dont think anybody i ever sold a knife to would know more" he couldnt tell the differene much in any of the steels if done properly. I think the cpm is horse-s! It might take a better finish but i cant tell the differnce in how sharp you can get it and i also think its more brittle @ the same rc with its brother. I have broke two pocketknife blades and one fixed blade useing that wonderful stuff. I never have!!!!!!!!! with its brother steel. such as 154cm or ats-34. They sure dont make many end-mills or lathe bits out of s30v.
 
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My 'most favorite' traditionals are a Buck 307 (440A), a Case TB5339SS Sowbelly (Case 'Tru-Sharp', a.k.a. 420HC), a Queen #49 Cattle King (D2), an 8OT Old Timer (1095) and an Eye Brand 425DS stockman (German carbon steel). Nothing fancy, but every one of them has taken a wicked sharp, reasonably durable and easily maintainable edge (although the Queen took a little more effort, with diamond hones, to put a decent bevel on it). That's a good balance of attributes, I think.
 
I'm not sure I have anything to add.

Queen makes most of their knives in D2 and their Schatt and Morgan File & Wire series is in ATS-34.

Don't get me wrong, I love to try different alloys, but as a couple of others have said, blade geometry is more important than the alloy. I have a GEC in 440C that, if measured by cutting effort, will outcut most knives in S30V.

Cost is also a valid reason. Traditional knives are much more complex than most one-handers. Making them out of a steel that is more difficult to process will certainly drive up the cost.

Aside from geometry, a nice piece of 1095 or 420HC will get razor sharp with very little effort using almost any medium. And it will hold that edge well enough to do quite a bit of cutting.

But to me, at the heart of the matter is "what camp are you in when it comes to good EDC steel?"

Having done a bunch of reading, it seems to me there's more or less two camps as far as EDC steels.
  • High wear resistance, but not as sharp - There's your S30V, 440C, 154CM et al. camp (great for skinning or extended cutting)
  • Very fine grained that gets razor edged - There's your 1095, 13C26, 420HC, AUS6 camp. (great for having a very fine edge at the ready with minimal work.)

These camps apply to one-handers as much as traditionals. Kershaw uses 13C26 and 14C28N, neither of which has much abrasion resistance but gets razor sharp. And there's a fair number of folks who like Kershaw knives. (me among them.)

Howsoever, we were talking about traditionals. For the most part, folks who like traditionals seem to be in the razor group. Most of us like a steel that is easy to get a really really fine edge on the blade, the kind of edge our fathers and grandfathers used. It's kind of part of the traditonal feel.


But, on the other hand, if you really really feel the need for a "high end" uber steel, you could buy a custom.
 
Here's another little something to think about. When Spyderco was developing the UKPK at the request of folks on British Blades, they found that the large volume of hard vanadium carbides in the S30V blade was causing rapid wear on the traditional spring stock, even when the surfaces were mirror polished. They ended up having to use blade steel for the backspring, and the heat treatment was very tricky to get exactly right. Several of those backsprings have failed in normal use, and they've gone to CTS-BD1 for the FRN UKPK. In other words, even steel junky Sal Glesser is using a "lesser steel" in his slipjoints now.

P.S. Check out the File and Wire series from Schatt and Morgan. That ATS-34 ain't no slouch.
 
Here's my theory. I think the propensity for traditional knives lies in the the word "traditional". Historically, they were the knives of the every day working man. As knives evolved, so did steels. The latest knife needed to have the latest steel. People who trusted their old knives were reluctant to trust the new knives. Especially stainless steels, which weren't very good back in the day. Companies with names people trusted, like Case and Schrade stuck with carbon steels for the most part. Diamond or alumina ceramic rods didn't exist. People needed a knife that they could get razor sharp with ease. Remember not that long ago when Buck switched to 420HC on the 110, and people started complaining about how hard it was to sharpen compared to the old 440C ones? There has been, is, and always will be a trade-off between edge holding and ease of sharpening. Modern made traditional knives, for the most part, have seemed to stick with the old ways. Something the average man can sharpen without spending a mint.

I definitely agree that it's unfortunate that you can't get a common stockman in S30V. Traditional knives available in premium steels are few and far between. And even then they're still not the "latest and greatest". Case has made a few in ATS-34/154CM, but you're stuck with the few patterns they choose (although being "stuck" with Tony Bose's is hardly a bad thing), and you'll pay a premium beyond what you might expect as reasonable. The best performance for your dollar is without a doubt a Queen in D2, at least when it comes to steels that won't rust when you look at them crosseyed. D2 might not be the latest, but it's still one of the greatest. Queen might not consistently put the best factory edges on their knives, but the fact that people complain about how hard it is to get a proper edge grind on them is in a way a testament to how good the heat treat is and how well it holds an edge.

My foray into traditional knives is very recent, and while I lament the apparent reluctance to mix the old knives with the new steels, I have come to accept and understand the reasons and virtues of sticking to the old ways. Personally, I think the ultimate traditional knife would have the old pinned construction, natural materials like bone, antler/horn, or wood, but with stainless liners and hardware, and a modern carbon steel like CPM-M4. But undoubtedly, even a production knife like that would cost a ton.

I'm kinda drunk and rambling now, so I'll stop while I'm relatively coherent.
 
thesouthernguitarist said:
Why do companies like, Case not make Traditional knives with modern steel, such as S30v?
Click to expand...

I can offer a couple of thoughts. First, you have to remember, production knives are first and foremost a product that the company sells to earn a profit, period. I don't begrudge Spyderco anything, and I respect Sal Glesser a ton, but most of that company's product line is designed to fill wants, not needs. (Same is probably true of most knife companies, btw.) I suspect that most companies selling traditional knives understand they have two distinct customer bases: Collectors who like to wipe their knives with a rag and keep them on a shelf, and guys who will use a pocketknife hard and who appreciate the cutting power of thin blades and appreciate a knife that will take and hold a great edge and then re-take an edge when inevitably dulled from work. Neither of these types of customers find the offerings from Case, Buck, Queen, Victorinox, Great Eastern, Moore Maker, Boker, etc. to be lacking.

Second thought:
You asked why companies like Case do not make traditional knives with modern steel. In turn, I'd also ask why serious working knives are also rarely made in modern steel? Think about it ..... your average cook or butcher or commercial fisherman probably uses a steel pretty close to what you'll find in your average traditional stainless slipjoint. Oh, I'm sure there are cooks and butchers who are knife nuts and use expensive knives with more exotic, high-end steel. But you'll mostly see plastic handled, stainless steel knives from the likes of Victorinox, Fiskars, etc., plus a lot of no-name knives that get the job done. You might even see "lowly" carbon steel takin' care of business ...... just like it has for centuries.

Cool topic!

-- Mark
 
I think all the bases have been covered in answering this question but may I just add.......

One of the important things to take into account is cost of sales. A working man can for $35-00 buy a two bladed 4" Case Trapper which, with proper care, will serve him well his whole life.

The ethos of the traditional American pocket knife has it's roots firmly in the lives of working men (and women) If Case were to retool and rejig to produce the same knife in say CPM-154 the price would rocket and the average man who stops at the hardware to buy one for himself or his son would simply not be able to afford it.

Case CV, Queen D2, or GEC 440C is generally all the everyday man will ever need. Yes powdered metallurgy steels are phenomenal but at the till at the hardware store, $35-00 for a knife for life is just a brilliant deal.

If you have never owned one go out and invest $30-$40 in a traditional, put it in your pocket for a week or so and then return and tell us your views...........:)
 
Mr Average Joe want a sharp $40 knife using a $2 stone
A couple of passes and you are sharp again

Queen took a huge risk in using D2 that needs a $15 diamond stone and more sharpening skills
 
I don't know....Queen's D2 is excellent.....and I wouldn't mind Carbon steels on a slipjoint either I think.

Personally I think people bother too much about "supersteels" anyway. Slipjoints are a breath of fresh air in that respect. People into slipjoints worry WAY more about build quality and such. I like it.

The whole steeljunkie thing kind of gets on my nerves anyway.
 
I don't place much value in superior locking mechanisms and super modern steel. I think that those knives are trying to come as close to a hard use fixed blade as a folder can. Just my preference, if I have to do some serious cutting, I grab a fixed blade. I don't want a good approximation if I have the real thing. For me folders are for light cutting and more minor tasks. The folder's biggest asset is that it fits in my pocket, so I can take it everywhere except the airport. My preference, however, is to use a fixed blade for cutting.

This is how I view a folder so it won't surprise anyone that I could care less for the wunderstahl. Yes I have a few, but they sit in the safe. I keep them because of who gave them to me, not because I really use them. ZDP, s30v, 154 are a pain to sharpen compared to 1095 and CV. I can do any task I see suitable to a folder with 1095, CV, or 420 series stainless without all the hassle of sharpening. If you are concerned about rust, with carbon, throw a little ballistol or "nose oil" on the blade after you are done, no problems. Even if I get a bit of rust, out comes the 0000 steel wool and a minute later I am done. The knives I carry are tools and frankly a tool looks better used in my opinion so patina and scratches are a plus.

Sharpening the more basic steels is easy. A few passes on a stone and I am back to shave sharp. No matter how good a steel is, it needs to be sharpened. Because I use my folders for light cutting, I might need to do real sharpening on the carbon or CV knives maybe once a month, if that. I usually do it more often just because I like to fiddle with the edge, not because I need to.

I honestly feel for the reasons above that carbon and basic stainless are best suited for how I view and use knives. I prioritize ease of sharpening to a razor edge over just about everything. I simply don't need the characteristics of the uber modern steel. You may be in the same boat, maybe not.

My advice would be, if you haven't already, buy a case in CV and play with it for a while. It is only $40 and I think you will be surprised. While the newer steels have some admirable qualities, good old CV works very well. If you love to sharpen, buy a D2 queen. With the factory safety edge of the Queen, you will give your stones a workout on the initial sharpening.
 
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People who buy and love slipjoints are smarter! :) We know it's not the steel so much as the grind and heat treat. We know that the "flavor of the month" steel is more marketing than true change. We use pry bars when needed and don't want to fell trees with a pocket knive. Plus 1095, case stainless, 440C are all proven steels that do the job and do it well.

That being said, LoneWolf developed a brand new steel with Bob Loveless that they used only in the city knife slipjoint and loveless hunters...How many tactical knives have that cachet :)
 
ATS-34 is still a favorite of mine and I prefer it to S30V, so they are out there, but I do agree with the above post very much so!
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If price didn't impact the decision than I would love a ZDP-189 or an S-90v but it does, so the Queen D-2 and GEC 1095 works great, I find the Buck 420HC to be okay, but for me the look, feel, and build quality are what I want to spend my money on, I would spend a couple of dollars more on the Queen D-2 above the Case CV
 
The answer is fine blanking. The cheap steels can be fine blanked in a punch press. The higher end stuff must be laser cut, water jetted, or electro-discharge wire cut. The lower end steels cost $.80 per pound. The higher end stuff can go over $250 per pound (Stellite 6K). I sharpen S-30, 60, 90, & 110 on SiC, Al2O3, and microcrystalline quartz (Arkansas) stones. I also sharpen ZDP-189, BG-42, Stellite 6B&6K, CPM 154, and Cera Titan Ti on the same stones. The thrust of powder metallurgy processing is to develop a very fine uniform grain structure. Most of the higher end stuff benefits from a sub-zero step in the heat treat. All of these factors boost prices. Some people call it overkill. I say overkill me. It's fun to use tools which exceed my expectations, and which can go for months or years without resharpening.
 
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