Lower End Steel in Traditionals?

I don't need the latest or greatest steels in my slipjoints, but I do wish that companies like Buck, Case, and Schatt & Morgan would use something better than 420HC or Tru-Sharp steel. I'd be happy if they reverted to using or even just offering more knives in simple carbon steels like 1095 and CV. The low end stainless steels may work, but IMO they don't work as well as simple carbon steels. Plus it's easier for companies using mass production methods to get the heat treatment right on carbon steel compared to stainless.

- Christian
 
I have never had an issue with bucks blade steel :) and I own knives with s30v and other modern steels but I'd prefer 1095 or W2 over them all...good edge retention, easy to sharpen, looks fantastic the older it gets.
 
Robert.B said:
I have never had an issue with bucks blade steel :) and I own knives with s30v and other modern steels but I'd prefer 1095 or W2 over them all...good edge retention, easy to sharpen, looks fantastic the older it gets.
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Careful or Don Hanson will smother you with kisses...;)

(It's great stuff to be sure. And while we're at it, let's throw 52100, A2 and O-1 into the mix. :thumbup:)
 
Blues said:
What do you think is lacking in Queen's D2? (Beyond a bit higher level of corrosion resistance in the "true" stainless steels.)

Case, aside from the Bose collaborations, does (iirc) produce some knives with 154-CM. (If you don't think that's good steel, talk to Rick Menefee, Bret Dowell and Kerry Hampton.)

440C, used by GEC, is an excellent stainless and is still preferred by some high end custom makers.

I'll let Frank (knarfeng) go over the attributes and abilities of some of the "lower" end steels. Might make you think twice about denigrating them.

Each steel (carbon or stainless) has its pluses and minuses. But in my opinion it's not worth getting caught up (too much) in the steel hype.

(And the traditional knife manufacturers might turn around and ask the companies you referred to above why they don't produce slipjoints. They're not easy to do right ;))
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^^ My apologies if my question seemed somewhat ignorant or offensive. My knowledge in knife steels is very small, and I have been wondering about this topic for a while. I was just hoping that some of the more knowledgeable folks here could help me better understand this.

Anyway, I am glad so many people replied to this thread, I now understand why companies use more common steel. One last question, couldn't possibly my sharpening tools/techniques have affected my experience with these steels? I typically use a fine rod (that I purchased at a sporting goods store) to touch up my blades, and hold them at the correct angle. Is this a acceptable way to sharpen these more common steels?
 
Blues said:
Careful or Don Hanson will smother you with kisses...;)

(It's great stuff to be sure. And while we're at it, let's throw 52100, A2 and O-1 into the mix. :thumbup:)
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As long as he slips one of his awesome sunfish folders in my pocket I can live with that :D
 
thesouthernguitarist said:
^^ My apologies if my question seemed somewhat ignorant or offensive. My knowledge in knife steels is very small, and I have been wondering about this topic for a while. I was just hoping that some of the more knowledgeable folks here could help me better understand this.

Anyway, I am glad so many people replied to this thread, I now understand why companies use more common steel. One last question, couldn't possibly my sharpening tools/techniques have affected my experience with these steels? I typically use a fine rod (that I purchased at a sporting goods store) to touch up my blades, and hold them at the correct angle. Is this a acceptable way to sharpen these more common steels?
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There was nothing ignorant or offensive in your question in the least. (Though I did take it that your pronouncement on what constituted "lower end" came from some experience and not mere assumption.)
Nevertheless, it's good that you asked. By doing so we've been treated to a great deal of information and many other members will profit by your coming forward with this thread.

As for sharpening (please see the "Maintenance" forum for more on this topic), the same basic methods work on all steels. The only thing that changes are your angles and the abrasives required.
The modern "super" alloys often require diamond or other aggressive hones to profile with. Ceramic works fine for the final touches once you have your edge bevel established.
Other steels will respond well to anything from diamond and ceramic to india and silicon carbide (amongst many, many other options).
 
For me its about aesthetics, the ability of the "older" steels to take on a patina (along with me while I'm taking on my patina.)
 
GEC's 1095 cryo treated steel is a great working and cutting steel IMO, it can compete with more modern steels easily
geometry and treatment are very high in quality wich makes these for example valuable opponents to many modern OH's, ok it's not stainless but some polish will eventually bring it back, the way it sharpens is unique, returns sharp in no time

Maxx
 
Per "I do wish Buck, Case, and Schatt & Morgan would use something better than 420HC or Tru-Sharp steel." Case and S&M offer slipjoints in premium steels. Buck offers it in lockbacks and fixed blades. Case even offers damascus. You just have to pay more and there is not as large of a pattern selection.
 
brownshoe said:
You just have to pay more and there is not as large of a pattern selection.
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That's exactly the problem. The Case and S&M knives that have better steels are a very sparse selection. But you're right there are some out there, and I'm especially excited about the new Heritage Series.

- Christian
 
zerogee said:
There are a lot of reasons. To begin with, "tacticals" and such only have one blade -- many traditionals have two, three, or four blades - how much are you willing to pay? These "high end" steels are tough to both process and to heat treat - adding still more expense to the equation. Most of the "high end" steels are not available in the thinner stock required for traditional blades -- custom mill runs and/or custom processing would be required - more $$$$; nor are they available in the form used by many of the big slipjoint manufacturers - for example, Case uses huge rolls of thin precision spec'd sheet stock. Many multiblade slipjoints require the blades to be crinked (bent precisely near the tang) to fit the blades past each other in the frame -- most "high end" steels will NOT bend at high hardness without breaking - nor are they amenable to being "drawn back" to a lower hardness just at the tang area to allow such bending. (Note: Tony Bose does not use the "high end" steels in his multiblade folders (the ones that must be crinked) for just that reason.) Almost all of the "high end" steels laugh at anything but a diamond hone -- most traditional slipjoint guys like to know that they can get their knife back to popping sharp wherever they are and whatever they might be doing - a more common steel with a bit less abrasion resistance makes this a whole lot easier. Most "high end" steels have huge grain - this means getting that ultimate hair popping edge can be pretty difficult, while the good old common steels have a much finer grain - getting hair popping edges is no problem (along with much more ease in getting that edge back in the first place).
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Tony Bose does use the high end steel in his slip joints, 154CM-D2- CPM440V- etc. He crinks them before they are heat treated then grinds them to the correct clearance.
 
Tony Bose said:
Tony Bose does use the high end steel in his slip joints, 154CM-D2- CPM440V- etc. He crinks them before they are heat treated then grinds them to the correct clearance.
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I stand corrected. I've seen you use 154CM or CPM154 on several crinked multiblades, but I could not remember ever seeing examples of the higher alloy CPM steels on your crinked multiblades (and had seen the reason I cited stated - I thought by you, but obviously I've got some crossed wires in my brain). However, pre-crinking before heat treat then grinding for final blade clearance after heat treat are not skills most modern slipjoint companies have available to apply in their production lines. (Ironically, the great old pre-WWII companies had master cutlers by the gross that could have handled this without blinking.)
 
I don´t need any of theese high-end-steels in Traditional Knives. Especially because, in my opinion, the lower-end-steels are very good for this kind of knives.

Buck - 420HC (very, very durable and edgekeeping steel, easy to resharpen)
Case - CV (very good carbon steel)
I could add a lot of other companies and labels to this list and I would prefer a 420HC-steel on a tactical knife more than such high-end-steels. Imo they are very hard to resharpen (S30V for example).

Kind regards
Andi
 
thesouthernguitarist said:
^^ My apologies if my question seemed somewhat ignorant or offensive. My knowledge in knife steels is very small, and I have been wondering about this topic for a while. I was just hoping that some of the more knowledgeable folks here could help me better understand this.
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Just wanted to say, this thread has evolved into a great one. Lots of insight here, from very experienced masters of the art. To the OP (thesouthernguitarist), I'm very glad you asked the question. A lot of the rest of us are learning something new as a result. Thank you. :thumbup:
 
I've made knives from the steels mentioned above as well as 1095, )1, A2, 52100, and others. The 2 main ingredients are proper heat treating and a properly ground ground blade with a thin edge. Any good steel will make a good knife if this happens.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Just wanted to say, this thread has evolved into a great one. Lots of insight here, from very experienced masters of the art. To the OP (thesouthernguitarist), I'm very glad you asked the question. A lot of the rest of us are learning something new as a result. Thank you. :thumbup:
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You are very welcome. I did not think my simple question would generate this much interest. I'm glad it did.
 
Tony Bose said:
I've made knives from the steels mentioned above as well as 1095, )1, A2, 52100, and others. The 2 main ingredients are proper heat treating and a properly ground ground blade with a thin edge. Any good steel will make a good knife if this happens.
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Thanks Tony, That's what Menefee always tells me...
Heat treat and thin grinds... Can't beat it!



Jason
 
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Tony Bose said:
I've made knives from the steels mentioned above as well as 1095, )1, A2, 52100, and others. The 2 main ingredients are proper heat treating and a properly ground ground blade with a thin edge. Any good steel will make a good knife if this happens.
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I think this is it in a nutshell. Traditional knives use traditional steels because they work just fine for the task. For normal tasks around the house and office, all I need is a sharp knife that will stay sharp a reasonable time, and sharpen back up without rocket surgery. It seems that lots of people agree.
 
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