Lower End Steel in Traditionals?

Just because everyone is in metal mode. As a collector - metal is a piece of the whole knife.
As a hunter, fisherman, camper, user - metal is important ----should go a good distance, resharpen pretty quick. I like several.

But the point of my post is to let interested folks know the little discussed fact that from 1986 to ~1993 Buck used 425M in their 301,303,309 and 305s (No 307s). Look for the ones with the BUCK escutcheon and/or proper date codes on the tang. I have not cut with it enough to compare with 420HC. The ink on the shield will wear off if carried as EDC, leaving only BUCK as shallow stamping. FYI.

300Bucks/ch
 
A couple of observations. If a knife is hard to sharpen, it is probably hard to dull. Wear resistance in is wear resistance out (no free lunch). I would rather spend extra time sharpening a premium steel so that I didn't have to monkey around with maintenance while I was on an extended backpacking trip (Appalachian Trail). Sharpening on round ceramic rods involves a wrap over effect at the end of the stroke which dulls the point. If you don't need a sharp point, use the round rods. If you need a sharp point, use flat stones or triangles flat side out and finish your stroke in the middle of said stone. I learned everything at the school of hard knocks.
 
tiguy7 said:
A couple of observations. If a knife is hard to sharpen, it is probably hard to dull. Wear resistance in is wear resistance out (no free lunch). I would rather spend extra time sharpening a premium steel so that I didn't have to monkey around with maintenance while I was on an extended backpacking trip (Appalachian Trail). Sharpening on round ceramic rods involves a wrap over effect at the end of the stroke which dulls the point. If you don't need a sharp point, use the round rods. If you need a sharp point, use flat stones or triangles flat side out and finish your stroke in the middle of said stone. I learned everything at the school of hard knocks.
Click to expand...

I think people over complicate things...the guys that forged the Appalachian Trail were not doing it carrying knives made of some fancy stainless or excessively complicated steel, I take sharpening equipment with me when I go camping and I'm sure the guys that did back then had a stone in their pack.

A basic carbon steel can be an amazing thing, it can take a wicked edge and if you damage the edge you wont spend an hour trying to repair it.
 
Wow....I think I need to read this thread many times to let all this fantastic information sink in.
I can only sum up this...
From the little I know about steels....from what I have read about D2 and 1095 I am very pleased with what I can achieve sharpening these metals, I wouldnt want anything else harder to get an edge on, as my sharpening skills are limited, but they will grow with experience and experimentation of others methods, so production of a mass produced knife would have to fit the "normal" mans requirements, and not the select few.
 
Another random thought to chew on: As long as we're talking about a knife steel of reasonable quality (i.e. not what's in some $3 gas station special from Pakistan), I'd much prefer the cutting power of a thin blade in small efficient package, over a big, thick-bladed knife with the latest, greatest wonder steel. There's a granny who walked the entire Appalachian Trail with sneakers on her feet and a Victorinox Classic as her only knife. I suspect I could get by with any of my traditional slippies from Case, Buck, Victorinox and so on.

-- Mark
 
Last edited:
Since I started carrying knives where there weren't tactical style or heavy work knives, I have a different feeling than some. I tend to agree with most us middle aged guys on what a knife is used for as a tool, particularly in the role as a slicer.

With that in mind, I won't give up my heavy work knife that is usually clipped to my pants pocket. I buy those in pretty good steel, only a couple in great as they do all kinds of things I won't use my smaller traditional knife to do.

When I carry only a traditional, I prefer a carbon steel blade. Weather and sweat are a limiter on that, but my preference is always carbon. I think it is because if carbon's long history or reliability in pretty much all conditions. Having carried carbon for about 50 years, it has never disappointed in its role as a knife steel (except in rainy conditions where rust was a problem).

I think too, that most folks that use traditional knives use them for their original intent; and that is the role of cutting or slicing instrument. I never use my good pocket knives for prying, scraping, turning screws, stripping/cutting wire, etc., and rarely lend them to someone for fear of them using the knife for those purposes. My traditionals are slicers, and are to be used for that sole purpose. In their role as slicers, I think it is damn difficult to find better than carbon steels for a knife. Easy to sharpen well and maintain, easy for the manufacturer to heat treat to get a consistent product, and easy to get just as sharp as you like.

Plus, I have a weird sort of satisfaction when I have a knife that I have carried a few years that gets that work patina from good use. When I "rediscover" it in my knife drawer and start carrying it again, I remember some of the things I have used it for over the years and it makes me smile.

And it may just be me and my favorite knives I compare the new ones to, but I can't ever seem to get and edge that feels right with stainless, and most high end. The only one close is the Dan Burke medium stockman I have, which is 12cXXXX and takes a really fine edge. All of the rest seem sharp and perform well, but just not up to snuff with carbon.

I find I just don't like my stainless bladed traditionals as much as they don't have that patina/character that comes from years of work and carry. They still look the same, regardless of their age and use. I want something that gets a little road wear on it, just like me.

Robert
 
If you went and rounded up 500 people at random from the streets of American, I have no doubt that most of them have never heard of most of the 'in' brands of the modern tacticool folders, let alone have the faintest idea of what kind of steel is in them.

Look in most kitchens, and you will find dull knives, and most will be some sort of big box store discount brand. The simple fact is, most of these urination contests over what steel is the lastest and greatest since flint knives is mulled over by a very tiny minority of people; knife nuts. These afflicted obsessed people account for such a tiny minority that is simply is not financially practical to offer high end steels on traditional pocket knives. Ask the run of the mill citizen in the street what a Benchmade or Spyderco is, and you'll get a blank look. Hold up a Swiss Army knife or a Buck knife, and most will recognize it. Yet the sak and the Buck use what is a common low end steel that the knife snobs look down on because it won't stand up to being stabbed through a car door or some other insane keyboard komando action.

The fact is, 99.999% of people just want to cut something, and the few of them that actually may go to sharpen their knife once in a while want it to be an easy task. Heck, I wish I had a nickle for every time I watched my father touch up his little Case pocket knife on the bottom of a coffee cup. Yet he got through life with a tiny pocket knife of simple carbon steel. Amazing!

The fact is, the steel market in the knife manufacturing world is an artificial driven market to sell more knives to a small repeat buyer market, by making their old cult worship item 'obsolete' by offering a so called new steel that will hold an edge through a record number of car doors.

This whole thing gets so blown out of proportion because of the cult worship by a small number of knife nuts. Most tradesmen I know, who really do use a cutting tool many times a day, just use a plain old Huskey utiltiy knife from Lowes. They cut sheet rock, insulation, strip wire, until it gets dull. Then they just slap a new blade in it and keep going. Toss the old blade in the trash. They wouldn't use a knife that costs over 10 bucks on job. When if comes to hunting, they have a well worn Buck knife that they use. If I mention a knife that has an XYZ123 steel blade that will hold an edge through 50 deer, but costs 200 dollars, they'll tell me they only have this one deer right here to do, the heck with a 200 dollar knife. For them the run of the mill Buck from Walmart does just fine. They're happy with it.

The super steels are for the obsessed steel snobs. The rest of humanity is happy with Old Timers 1095, Case CV, and even Bucks 420HC. They just don't know the difference, or even care.

Carl.
 
Last edited:
I enjoy touching up the edges of my knives; there is a connection and tactile satisfaction to it. We have a leather strop screwed to the side of a cabinet at work & it serves as a cracker barrel, we strop or knives and have a relaxed chat; don't seem to have a "communication" problem. I think it lowers blood pressure also.

Tom
Watermelon Pond
 
I can honestly say that after reading everyone's thoughts on this topic, that my perspective on knife steels have really changed. Particularly, Jackknife's (Carls) post really made sense to me. At this point, I am definitely content with these more common steels. Thank you to everyone who gave their opinion.
 
Fancy steels are OK, but I get along fine with simple ones too. I do prefer stainless to plain carbon though, because my acid salty sweat could rust a piece of glass.
 
Phil in Alabama said:
Fancy steels are OK, but I get along fine with simple ones too. I do prefer stainless to plain carbon though, because my acid salty sweat could rust a piece of glass.
Click to expand...

Mine, too. I was advised here that if I would take a minute to take care of my knives properly, they wouldn't rust regardless of conditions. I must have extra nasty acid sweat; I eat the chrome off watch stems, and have eaten through more than a few watch backs. I even had an old diver watch that I ate small holes into the chrome!

If I pull out my nicely oiled blade and cut open boxes to remove fixtures, open equipment, or use it whittle something like screw pegs, etc., then the oil is removed from the blade. I can rust one up in a day. Many of us in construction sweat enough to do that. That in my opinion (outside of the fact it is an outstanding work knife) is why the Buck 110 and its 420HC blades were/are so enormously popular on the job. All the advantages of carbon, but a lot of rust resistance. Of course, keeping it in a belt sheath didn't hurt, either.

I was excited when CASE came out with stainless, and bought a trapper and stockman as soon as I could swing it back in the 70s. Ouch. Horrible. I had butter knives that kept a better edge.

So I went back to carbon, and kept the knife in my tool bags, and only in my pocket when I was through with work for the day. It wasn't a great solution, but better than having it in a pocket soaked with sweat all day.

In reading these other posts, I think most here feel the same. 1095 and its carbon brethren are not lower end steels but are steels that have stood the test of time for their given tasks, meeting any reasonable challenge with flying colors.

My newest find in the wonderful world of carbon is D2. About three years ago I bought a D2 Queen sodbuster. I was surprised to see just how sharp it would get. I read more on this group about D2, and found that D2 isn't new at all, just new to me. I think it was here that I read that the steel has been in use since the 50s for something or another, just not knives. The sodbuster led to a Jim Burke Barlow in D2, which led to a JYDII in D2, which led to an Ontario RAT7 in D2, which led back to a Queen gunstock in D2. Couldn't get enough of it.

I did take a side trip to get a Queen Railsplitter in 420HC, with 420 probably being about the same vintage as D2.

So regardless of the newest and greatest steels, I still like my carbon. Just different carbon, like D2 and another knife I just picked up in 420.

I think thesouthernguitarist, if you buy a carbon steel knife from a good company, you won't find anything at all lacking in its performance.

Robert
 
I'd love to see some companies like Case and Buck move away from 420HC/Trusharp stainless, and onto such steels as AEBL/13c26. I can understand that using higher end steels will increase the cost, and that the heattreating of the steels Case and Buck uses, are incredibly good, for what steel they use. I just can't help but get the impression that knives are run quite soft in regards to hardness. As a guy who likes to whittle, nothing is more annoying than having to stop mid-whittle, so to speak, to sharpen a knife that's just too soft. D2 is really good stuff, but for me tends to show signs of carbide pullout, due to sharpening my edges rather on the thin side. As far as i know, AEBL/13c26 is very fine grained, which would be beneficial when it comes to thin edges. It is afterall used in razors and suchlike. Too bad not alot of companies or custom makers use it. I'd much rather have AEBL/13c26, than D2, 154cm, s30v, and all the other high-end steels. (Ofcourse, i have traditional folding knives in all of the above, which again makes me wonder. Why use steels like D2, 154cm, s30v, but not AEBL?)

Sorry for my ramble.
 
Common steel, - special steel.
Most often when I read about this its the hardness of the steel that is the key matter of discussion. We all think differently about this based on experienses of the steel and mabye sometimes also mostly based on what we have read. We live in the first ages of good steels that can be massprodused realy hard tempered. They are expensive and only available in the expensive brandnames. This gives them very good advertising. I belive its kind of "initiated" to know about them. And its good steels, for some uses. I dont think its a coincidence that the steels of traditional workingknifes like butchers knifes, moraknifes, folders like case or schrade mostly has midhard blades. Hard enough to hold their edges, but soft enough to take some abuse and soft enough to be able to fieldsharpen. Many users want a realy sharp edge all the time but is willing to have sharpening equipment nearby and is greatful to hone the knife taking a short brake in their work doing so.

Bosse
 
As a former steel snob I have slowly come to the conclusion, as stated by the very talented Tony Bose, that the heat treatment and blade geometry are more important than the blade steel.

Queen's D2 steel works just fine for me.
 
I am a recovering steel snob :D. I've carried knives with steels from CPMS30V to D2 to 420J2. I've witnessed steel arguments in person, and here on the forums. Some makers swear by different steels. A traditional knife user, your average joe that stops by the hardware store to pick up a knife to carry for his lifetime, wants something that will cut. Not baton or hack or chop. A simple knife. It is a tool. We're knife nuts, I have my eye on a couple different knives with new super steels. The super steels drive the knife industry, and they're catered to the knife nuts like us. The average joe is going to buy a Buck, Case or a SAK. He's going to get 420HC, SS or "Rostfrei" steel. He's going to be able to sharpen it easily, and it will last him a lifetime, and he will replace it if he loses it. That's it.

I have a preference for steels, it would be great if Buck used 154CM, even ATS34, in their slipjoints. I would really like to see a Buck 301 with 154CM steel. Would it be beneficial to their bottom line? Nope. It's a treat for us knife nuts, or a curse, as some might believe, to have this group of steels available to us. While I might swear by A2 for my "woods blades", and really like D2 or 154CM on my knives, and would like to find another Sebenza with BG42, as long as the knife will hold and maintain an edge, that's all you need.

Knife nuts are a rare breed, and we go bonkers over the new flavor of the month. To most people, they're just cutting tools.

I still like my A2 though :cool:.

I've had the pleasure of visiting a couple knife makers in their shops, and while they have their steel preferences, it does really come down to the heat treatment of the steel.

I would like to see Case and Buck use 440C though.
 
Im just now starting to get into vintage slip joints. I have been picking up the oldies here and there and I have to say, the steel is often a dream to sharpen. What takes an hour with a super steel only takes a few minutes with these classic carbon knives. I just love having a razor sharp edge with almost no effort -but with older knives edge retention is not even my biggest concern.

What I find best about traditional knives, is the blade geometry. New knives with super steels are all too often thick which would seem contradictory if the idea is to improve cutting performance. Those basic carbon steels at mid hardnesses are tough enough to be made into really thin blades. Some of the pen blades on old knives are so thin, they can cut through just about anything without even having a sharp edge. Edge retention looses some of its importance when you have such great blade geometry.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top