m2 afck vs spyderco miliary in cpm440v

Blues-(who's gotta' be a forum moderator some day), practice ALWAYS is the essence. Thanks.

Sal-Really good to have you here responding. For my money your company has always been the most innovative and value for your dollar knife producer ever. Real good news about the Military lock and the full size Dyad.

Hey Sal, is it true you lived in Redding, Ca. for a while when you were first starting out? I live in Dunsmuir and work in Mt. Shasta, and this area, (along with Southern Oregon), sure is a hotbed of knife lovers and makers.

Oh yeah, one last question. I have a great idea for a "Military Man" t-shirt. What would be the chance of getting an okay to have a few made up for the formite Military "maniacs"? Dexter and I would be first in line.
smile.gif
Thanks.
 
Yes, a stuck open liner lock would be quite a quandary. I was referring to "practice" in my post, but when it happened or which generation Military it was, I don't know. Perhaps Buck is short on time and doesn't want to share his story, but he was on the side of a cliff hanging off a rope during a rescue operation when his buddy used a Military to cut some stray webbing. The Military's liner leaf jammed over and stuck open, just like many have predicted that it would. Imagine being cliffside hanging from a rope with a victim's life as well as your partners in danger because a climber's nightmare - a sharp object - is jammed open. What did they do? They tossed the knife down the mountain and told the people below to kindly look out! That is enough "practice" over theory for me. It is only one case, but one case is enough for me like that and I have never heard of such happening with a dual liner.
I hope that this was an old model, and I am glad if the new one is better. Like I said, besides that incident, the only thing I don't like about the Military is the big handle, but that is why they make so many knives, is so that they have one to suit everyone's needs.

thaddeus
 
Well, I don't see that single, dual or nested liner makes a difference to a liner lock jamming open. Example in point is one day I was at a knife store and the guy behind the counter was showing the fine points of a Benchmade AFCK to a customer when he snapped it open. Well the lock wedged itself so well that he could not close it. Even I tried with no luck. I guess we just turned into a fixed blade. "Oh well, Back to BM it goes". I think this is a possibility with any liner lock and not so much a design issue. But I would rather have a liner lock that securely locks the blade in place by nearly toughing the other liner like the Military does than to have a locking liner that barely touches the blade like so much of the competition does.


 
Thaddeus,

Don't take this the wrong way, when I mentioned above that "practice" kicked "theory's" butt, it wasn't a swipe at you, but rather a validation of Gene's point.

And while I agree with you (as a climber with some 20 years experience from Alaska to Wyoming to the Northeast)that hanging off a rockface with a stuck open knife would be a major problem, it seems to me that (correct me if I am wrong) you endorsed the Emerson Commander after several folks had reported having a problem unlocking the liner lock on the knife, and that the knife had a questionable detent. In fact those very reports kept me from buying one.

My point being that if, as a scientist, one instance "was enough for you" with the Spydie, I wonder why it wasn't with the Emerson.

Well, like you say, that's why they make so many different knives.

Respectfully submitted,

Blues

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Live Free or Die







 
Perhaps "Practice" and "theory" are two legs on the same body, taking turns to move forward.?

Some thoughts to share on the linerlock lock up. Linerlocks are very tricky with the angles of the mating of the tang/lock as well as the hardness of each surface and inheirant qualities of the materials. It is difficult if not impossible to create the right combination that will "lock" properly with light effort and still work well with heavy effort. When one "throws" out the blade using inertia, the force at contact is very great. More oftren than not, such force will push the liner farther over or "tighter" than the light aforementioned pressure was designed for. I would guess that in such a lock up case, the blade was snapped out using inertia and the liner simply locked up too tight to easily unlock. We also found that titanium was a little "grabbier" and "bendier" than steel and even magnified the problem more. I believe that most linerlocks that are opened as designed would probably not have a problem. (assuming geometries and hardness are proper)
sal
 
Thanks Blues, I kinda thought it was a swipe at me, but I kept my head and tried to just reply rationally. I don't want to drag this into the ground, especially because I was not there, but the Military in question flexed (or something) due to the adrenaline involved in the situation and the liner went all the way over to the other side, totally jamming it open.
The Commander on the other hand, comes with a tight lockup out of the box, but breaks in...it never flexes and allows the liner to pop over the the other side of the handle making it all but impossible to close. The Commander is just a matter of break in due to the galling of the metals and a very well made lock (in my experience).
Once, again, I am not trying to beat this dead horse, and I will drop it, especially because it isn't even my experience, but I just wanted to clarify the difference between the two occurances. Many people predicted that the Military would have problems with handle flexing, and when this story popped up, it was just the icing on the cake, and as an avid climber it really hit home. (The thought of a serrated edge next to my rope sends shivers up my spine just sitting here!)
Once again, if I liked the large size of the Military's handle, I might just buy one anyway because I wouldn't go off of one story. But never the less, I like the models that are easier to carry anyway. To each his own.

Thanks for the clarification Blues, I appreciate it. It is hard to tell one's candor somtimes on these forums.

respectfully and humbly,
thaddeus
 
Well, guys I don't want to start a war of flames or a "Which Knife is Better Thread", but I feel that I owe all of you a reply on this matter.
Thaddeus is quite correct in his recollection of my Military story. I'm not sure exactly what happened when the knife opened, but something must have flexed because the liner did go all the way over preventing either of us from unlocking the knife from where we were dangling off that rock face. Maybe it was the adrenaline rush, maybe it was flicked open, I can't say for sure, but it did lock open for good. After reading all of the comments here today, I made quick phone call to the fire-fighter who ownd that knife because it was never sent back for repairs. Instead it has been mounted on a plack with pictures from that op. and resides in his home. However, it was the older model of the Military.
I know that when this occurred, I was a little disgusted with this knife, but have since then had time to think it over and discuss it with others. And I probably contributed to some negative press and feelings towards this knife. Sounds like Sal has gotten this potential lock problem figured out and resolved. Since the occurrence I've read a lot of quality aspects and data about this knife and have kinda renewed my interest in this knife. I'll admit, I was quite leary about this folder especially while dangling over a face with it locked open for good. So many knife users have a lot of good things to say about it though. As all of you have said, that's why they make so many knives, this way we can all find one we prefer to carry and use.
I felt that I owed all of you this response. I also apologize for any toes I may have stepped on with the tale of my encounter. Sal, it sounds to me like you've got a functional folder there, if you don't mind I'll send you an e-mail adn let me know when they come out with the new locks. I'd like to buy one and review it myself to get the overall picture through my knife uses and duties.
I apologize for beating a dead horse here as well!
Buck
 
Buck - I thought is was a good thread. Knowledge shared, lessons learned, improvement needed, noted and effort extended to improve. Improvement noted. Feedback is essential and the negative feedback is most important.
sal
 
I agree with Sal,

I have learned much more from my mistakes than I have all my successes combined.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com





 
Sal, Mike,
Thanks. I agree with you both. We all have gained valuable knowledge through our mistakes and this thread.
Buck
 
I gotta' chime in here too, cuz' it is my integrity as well that is challenged when somebody starts talking about the difference between theory and practice.

Probably most readers have already read my experience with the old Military. I was cutting some heavy plastic pots off the bottom of some shrubs and I had to really put some force into it to drive the blade through. The pots were on a table, and I grabbed the handle with both hands, straightened my arms, stood on my toes and put some, not all, just some of my body weight on the handle. To the Military's credit, I cut through several of these, and the blade was still quite sharp. To the Military's discredit, the handle had flexed and allowed the lock to jam. It had crept most of the way across the blade tang, and had a distinct bow in it. It require the use of a pair of pliers to unlock it. No theory, just practice, not bogus, thank you very much. Applying pressure to the back of the blade with one's foot does not stress the handle.

I get deeply offended by the tendency of some people to try to discredit those who report bad things about knives they like. I like the Military too, that's how I came to spend over $100 for one and be using it on a job that was almost too tough for it one day. I would really love to see a truly "combat" strength version soon, with the Rolling Lock and double stainless or Ti liners.

Harv
 
I own both the M2 AFCK and the 440v (older) Military -- I go back and forth as to which one I like more, you can't really lose with either one.

One big plus about both of them is that you can put a _really_ sharp edge on them with a Sharpmaker. The hair will jump off your arms when you simply open the blade!

I tried some very unscientific edge holding tests while cutting a huge pile of cardboard and they seemed about equal against cardboard. The ATS34 AFCK I also was testing was pretty much a butterknife at that point.

I think the G-10 on the Military is much nicer and you can easily operate it with glove on. The AFCK has a smaller handle package, making it easy to carry IWB.

Either way, you can't go wrong.


--Doug
 
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