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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
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M390, 204P, 20CV ?
- Thread starter gull wing
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They are the same in composition.
But they are not the same in the production process. The powder metallurgy process used by Böhler on M390 is said to be a third generation process (whatever that means) so it's likely the final product M390 is not exactly the same than CPM 20CV or CTS 204P.
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FWIW, I spent some time fretting over the meaning of the powder process "generation" and eventually learned that it doesn't mean much. "Third generation" just means that it's the 3rd iteration of one particular company's powder process — and all that means is that they've been doing it the longest; not necessarily that it's superior to any "first" or "second" generation process.
That said, I'm sure the processes are substantially different. You can probably find patents galore, although I've never looked.
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Look at the link I posted. Indeed the process is different. With that said, they are still virtually the same and will only really differ by the heat treatment and geometry.
could be due to blade finish. Stonewashed for example could be easier to form rust. But it's just on the surface and probably didn't cause any pitting and probably just comes right off. Many rust testing has shown its really hard to actually to rust.
The virtually nonexistent differences are a very slight difference in what could practically be said to be a secondary ‘toughness’ agent (silicon), and a process difference resulting in a very minor difference in carbide fineness. This has no bearing on corrosion resistance, and the granule deviation is so minor as to be a non-factor.
As has been repeated already, heat treatment, edge geometry, and finish are far bigger factors in perceived difference.
As has been repeated already, heat treatment, edge geometry, and finish are far bigger factors in perceived difference.
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Like others have said. Heat treat and geometry. That’s where any differences lie.
What I’m about to write is not snark, but a truthful description of my impressions. I agree that the steels are nearly identical in composition, and I also agree with Larrin and the others here who say that variations in geometry, heat treat, and surface finish will dwarf any difference attributable to composition.
I think, however, that there is a real difference in the attractiveness of the NAMES of the 3 alloys. This is just me, but M390 just looks better on the page and sounds better when spoken, than the other two. Others may prefer the look/sound of 204P, or 20CV. This may also vary based on one’s native language. Placing the letter ahead of the number gives a different feel than the reverse order does.
There’s nothing wrong with preferring one label over another. It happens all the time; branding is a real factor in human perceptions. Which sounds better, 440V or S60V?
I think, however, that there is a real difference in the attractiveness of the NAMES of the 3 alloys. This is just me, but M390 just looks better on the page and sounds better when spoken, than the other two. Others may prefer the look/sound of 204P, or 20CV. This may also vary based on one’s native language. Placing the letter ahead of the number gives a different feel than the reverse order does.
There’s nothing wrong with preferring one label over another. It happens all the time; branding is a real factor in human perceptions. Which sounds better, 440V or S60V?
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A fellow member was selling the latest PM2 in 20CV about 3 weeks ago, and he spotted some markings on the blade which turned out to be pitting (i believe he used a microscope but i'm not 100% on that). He mentioned that this was the second knife out of the three (not familiar with the other two brands) he got lately in 20CV, that had pitting marks. I do not have any personal experience with these steels just wanted to share that info with you.
sharp_edge
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The "perceived" difference (M390 is better) by most people I believe is a psychological one, which is due to the fact that M390 is not as readily available as the other two. ZT 0562cf is a prime example.
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Factory 2nds have some marks on them and sometimes they'll have marks from hrc testing. But also this could be due to the heat treatment of the knife too. But either way stainless is exactly that. Stain less. If they came out of the box like that return it for a new one. If he didn't take care of them that's on him.
lambertiana
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M390 for me.
Uddeholm is a Swedish company, but M390 is made by Böhler-Uddeholm, which is based in Austria. 20CV and 204P are American-made steels.
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The head office is in Austria now, but that has nothing to do with where M390 is made. As far as I know, it's made in Sweden by B-U, and another B-U facility in Sweden is opening this year just for powder steel. They also have factories in Germany and Brazil.
Do you have some actual information that M390 is not made in Sweden?
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Any differences you see between M390, 20CV, and 204P is simply the result of variance in geometry and heat treatment. Having had a large assortment of M390 and cognates from different companies, I can say they all perform similarly enough to be impossible to tell apart. That said, I like 204P because sales of it could possibly urge Carpenter to start making more XHP, and more XHP is a beautiful thing. It's totally unrelated, but one can hope.
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Bohler and Uddeholm operate relatively independently despite having the same parent company (Voestalpine). M390 is a Bohler product. I don't have any inside information on what is produced in Sweden vs Austria, but I think the production of M390 in Austria is likely.
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