m390 tough enough ?

Ankerson said:
These days, no.... And not just ZT either. ;)

Typical of most of what I saw when I was at Blade this year, that's both folders and fixed blades.
Click to expand...

To be fair though that ZT does thin out a lot between the spine and the edge. Not enough to make it a great cutter but enough to mitigate the thickness a little bit to where it's at least able to cut stuff without stupid amounts of force.
 
bodog said:
To be fair though that ZT does thin out a lot between the spine and the edge. Not enough to make it a great cutter but enough to mitigate the thickness a little bit to where it's at least able to cut stuff without stupid amounts of force.
Click to expand...

It does look reasonable for the type of knife that it is.
 
M390/204P is not a tough steel at all seriosly...

I ever used my Green Para cut through several aluminium can and the edge had some micro chip...

surprisingly I don't have the same experience with S30V...

My custom in 52100 with even thinner edge wouldn't suffer the same issue, ever..
 
shqxk said:
M390/204P is not a tough steel at all seriosly...

I ever used my Green Para cut through several aluminium can and the edge had some micro chip...

surprisingly I don't have the same experience with S30V...

My custom in 52100 with even thinner edge wouldn't suffer the same issue, ever..
Click to expand...

tin snips?! lol.
 
bodog said:
Aluminum cans should not chip an edge. I cut them quite a bit. Mainly to open a vent on the top.
Click to expand...

That's why I lol'd. Given we haven't heard much from OP about the M390 blade in question, there's too many variables surrounding heat treat, blade thickness, edge geo, etc to really know. My guess is that 62HRC, probably made it brittle. Everyone's MMV when cutting metals/bone (if that's your thing), but saying M390 is somehow weaker than S30V really made me laugh, maybe in some cases, but certainly not the rule. Depends on who's doing the excecution. For a better comparison, CPM-20CV is closer to M390 than S30V. OP got some photos of those chips?
 
B34NS said:
That's why I lol'd. Given we haven't heard much from OP about the M390 blade in question, there's too many variables surrounding heat treat, blade thickness, edge geo, etc to really know. My guess is that 62HRC, probably made it brittle. Everyone's MMV when cutting metals/bone (if that's your thing), but saying M390 is somehow weaker than S30V really made me laugh, maybe in some cases, but certainly not the rule. Depends on who's doing the excecution. For a better comparison, CPM-20CV is closer to M390 than S30V. OP got some photos of those chips?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying he's bs'ing at all. If he has a blade of M390 that chips by cutting some thin, soft aluminum then the blade or steel are bunk for his purposes. I wouldn't call cutting some really thin aluminum abuse or even hard work. I would bet it was a benchmade had he not said spyderco. Given that it was a spyderco then it brings up the question of whether M390 is tough enough to be used normally in a thin profile. I'd say that his example proves no, for him at least. I do know that S30V isn't tough enough for my uses without being stupid thick or stupid soft so I know M390 really wouldn't be either. Elmax is, at least at 59 +/- HRC. My spyderco military in S30V is a damned good knife but sharpened at a modest 15 degrees per side the edge doesn't last unless I'm cutting basically only cardboard or wood or food. That's not a bad thing, that's the hardest work most people do with their knives so I can see why people think so many of these steels are so great. The past two weeks Ive been cutting into burlap sacks of raw and roasted coffee beans, bags of dried rice, awling into wooden pallets, scraping rust off of VIN plates, cutting open MANY cardboard boxes, etc. A blade meant for a lot of cutting into baby shit soft material doesn't suit my needs, but neither does a sharpened pry bar.

The most damaging stuff that happens to my knives is when I have to cut into things without knowing how deep whatevers on the other side is. I've chipped my blades by cutting into boxes with toilets and ceramic bowls, that always sucks. I've had to notch out wood from random tables with freaking hidden nails and screws, that always sucks. I know I have high demands for knives made with high toughness, high wear resistance steel. There aren't many out there, especially in folders, and it sucks that my boss just told me that I can't wear fixed blades anymore. My PSF27 mule team blade was just about perfect. I could see something being a little better but it stood up to whatever I threw at it with the exception of squeezing into a frozen window to try to get it unstuck this last winter. The tip didn't like lateral stress while it was about 20 degrees outside at all.
 
Last edited:
bodog said:
I'm not saying he's bs'ing at all. If he has a blade of M390 that chips by cutting some thin, soft aluminum then the blade or steel are bunk for his purposes. I wouldn't call cutting some really thin aluminum abuse or even hard work. I would bet it was a benchmade had he not said spyderco. Given that it was a spyderco then it brings up the question of whether M390 is tough enough to be used normally in a thin profile. I'd say that his example proves no, for him at least. I do know that S30V isn't tough enough for my uses without being stupid thick or stupid soft so I know M390 really wouldn't be either. Elmax is, at least at 59 +/- HRC. My spyderco military in S30V is a damned good knife but sharpened at a modest 15 degrees per side the edge doesn't last unless I'm cutting basically only cardboard or wood or food. That's not a bad thing, that's the hardest work most people do with their knives so I can see why people think so many of these steels are so great. The past two weeks Ive been cutting into burlap sacks of raw and roasted coffee beans, bags of dried rice, awling into wooden pallets, scraping rust off of VIN plates, cutting open MANY cardboard boxes, etc. A blade meant for a lot of cutting into baby shit soft material doesn't suit my needs, but neither does a sharpened pry bar.

The most damaging stuff that happens to my knives is when I have to cut into things without knowing how deep whatevers on the other side is. I've chipped my blades by cutting into boxes with toilets and ceramic bowls, that always sucks. I've had to notch out wood from random tables with freaking hidden nails and screws, that always sucks. I know I have high demands for knives made with high toughness, high wear resistance steel. There aren't many out there, especially in folders, and it sucks that my boss just told me that I can't wear fixed blades anymore. My PSF27 mule team blade was just about perfect. I could see something being a little better but it stood up to whatever I threw at it with the exception of squeezing into a frozen window to try to get it unstuck this last winter. The tip didn't like lateral stress while it was about 20 degrees outside at all.
Click to expand...

I didn't think he was bs'ing either, why I asked for photos to get a better idea of what caused the failure. Or specs maybe? Just curious as I've only used M390 treated by PHT and have had great experiences with it ths far. As I said above, there many other factors that contribute to the success or failure of a design, some of those may not have been best leveraged given the steels properties. One must remember that M390 was adapted by knife makers, it wasn't designed by the foundry for this specific use. Not saying that it can't be done, may just be more challenging at certain specs. Compare that to S7 or 3V designed to cut thermoplastics where the impact resistance is more imporant than corrosion resistance. Food for thought, as OP is chopping bones with a knife at 62HRC.
 
B34NS said:
I didn't think he was bs'ing either, why I asked for photos to get a better idea of what caused the failure. Or specs maybe? Just curious as I've only used M390 treated by PHT and have had great experiences with it ths far. As I said above, there many other factors that contribute to the success or failure of a design, some of those may not have been best leveraged given the steels properties. One must remember that M390 was adapted by knife makers, it wasn't designed by the foundry for this specific use. Not saying that it can't be done, may just be more challenging at certain specs. Compare that to S7 or 3V designed to cut thermoplastics where the impact resistance is more imporant than corrosion resistance. Food for thought, as OP is chopping bones with a knife at 62HRC.
Click to expand...

I believe ZT quoted their 0180 with Vanadis 4E at 62 hrc. It's a pretty tough motherf***er especially considering its fairly high hardness. That's the point, a lot of people rave about certain steels without really testing them and then find it unbelievable when someone says a certain steel isn't quite up to snuff for actual work. Maybe the problem isn't so much the steels as much as it's really about people saying a steel is great without quantifying what makes it so great or with little to no experience using the steel for real work or other steels when making recommendations or comparisons.

When I parrot something or someone I try to make it pretty clear that I'm parroting but when I say I have experience with something I've used the crap out of it and when I compare it to another steel it's a steel that I've actually used. So with that being said, I've never used M390 but looking at charpy values and comparing those charpy values with steels that I DO know, it's not tough enough to excel at tough work unless you absolutely need corrosion resistance and then you can heat treat it and grind it in a way to make it acceptable, but not outstanding.
 
Last edited:
Still doesn't make any sense to write off a steel completely because it didn't work for one person one time. Purely guessing it's that OP mentioned the knife would be used for skinning and hunting, so the corrosion resistance property makes sense. Chopping bone and metal, well good luck! I wouldn't want to put my hands on a piece of steel before knowing as much as I can about it so not to waste time and money. It's a bummer OP had a poor experience with it. I hope he can adjust some other attributes and salvage it. Donate it on the pay it forward thread for someone who wants to put in the time to try and bring it back maybe?

Precisely why I don't parrot anything. I've just been describing my experience with the steel, executed by someone else and am loving it. YMMV couldn't be more true sometimes. I hope it all works out for OP in the end! That's just how beginning knife making goes, mostly failure until success. Maybe seeing if there is a local custom maker that could help tell you where things went wrong and if it's fixable.

aOmlnuol.jpg
 
I suppose what I was disappointed about is reading cutting comparison tests on here saying that m390 at rc 62 was such a great edge holder, ordering some from the states, working it into a knife ( its a mare of a steel to get all the scratches out of ) farming it out for heat treat , then having a large chunk of the tip snap off in a very short space of time, when I could of just made a nice knife out of a Nicholson file etc , in the same profile , heat treated it myself, and it would of kept nearly the same edge , and not snapped.
i don't consider skinning deer to be a hard use for a knife, so i went for a distal taper and pretty much full flat grind with a convex edge. same as the last knife i made which has pried out a whole jar full of deer tusks without an issue.
m390%20side_zpsc9tyz80k.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
The only way that a stainless steel will be tough is if the Rc is kept low. That is how all those cheap stainless knives survive abuse. I don't see how any stainless at 62 can be considered tough unless you do what strider does and just grind it out as a prybar. Then it is tough because of all the metal to support the edge and tip.
 
I just don't understand when some people keep saying something silly like 'M390 at 62HRC is plenty tough'...

He might has an odd definition of tough...
 
My suggestion for future is make him a piggy back skinner and seperate prying knife like tool?
 
caseynz said:
I suppose what I was disappointed about is reading cutting comparison tests on here saying that m390 at rc 62 was such a great edge holder, ordering some from the states, working it into a knife ( its a mare of a steel to get all the scratches out of ) farming it out for heat treat , then having a large chunk of the tip snap off in a very short space of time, when I could of just made a nice knife out of a Nicholson file etc , in the same profile , heat treated it myself, and it would of kept nearly the same edge , and not snapped.
i don't consider skinning deer to be a hard use for a knife, so i went for a distal taper and pretty much full flat grind with a convex edge. same as the last knife i made which has pried out a whole jar full of deer tusks without an issue.
m390%20side_zpsc9tyz80k.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Click to expand...

That looks like it was really nice little knife, nice work btw! By the looks of it, there's just enough belly to maybe reprofile that into something like a sharpfinger for skinning and maybe get a small pieice of S7 or 3V to make a Yokote-Kogatana out of for the incisor portion, think of it kind of like an oyster knife. Unfortunate, but I think it's still has some potential as a skinner, dejointer/deboner, that is easy for me to say as I'm not doing the work ;) You guys are lucky to have a jar full! I've only seen them on elk and whitetail out here once in years.
 
I had a friend show me what he felt was the best over all skinner knife and it had a 30° slope the last 3/4" of the tip of the blade. He said wih the flat lile that there was no puncturing the gut sack it, just glided above it so smoothly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top