M390 vs. M4 Rope Cut Test

Any chance you could do a grudge match test of S30V vs. VG-10?
A lot of people complain about too much VG-10 in Spyderco's lineup but I love the stuff.
 
Spyderco Dude said:
Any chance you could do a grudge match test of S30V vs. VG-10?
A lot of people complain about too much VG-10 in Spyderco's lineup but I love the stuff.
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I like it a lot too, but the numbers may bum you a bit. In straight controlled abrasion test cutting, it ranks pretty low. Ankerson has tested some VG-10 and it is near the bottom.
 
Yeah, VG10 vs s30V wouldn't even be close. I like how sharp VG10 gets, and it's pretty easy to keep it there, but it lacks the carbide volume to play with S30V. While S30V has it's pros and cons. Many people love or hate it, it's still got plenty of Vanadium and Chromium. VG simply doesn't bring enough to the dance. :)
 
I hesitate to post my results for 2 reasons. My results were quite different, and I wasn't testing the same steels. I wanted to see how some of the steels I had on hand would stack up. Also, there was an issue withthe blade that needed to be fixed and the test tried again. I hope to do it tonight and will post afterward.
 
Vegas Blade said:
I am using a WE. I sharpen to 17* per side. I then sharpen to the 600 grit stone. Yes, still notebook paper. It's as common as I can find. :)

Do share your results. This is all about learning the steels. Were yours different?
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Ok, I repeated my test from a couple nights ago, so I'll share it here. Just remember, you asked for it.

I have a new kitchen knife I received for Christmas from my wife. I marked a 3" section of the blade so it would at least have that as similar to the test knives in the rest of the thread. I sharpened it on a 220 grit Norton water stone, followed by 1000 grit King and then the medium 204 (Sharpmaker) rods at a back bevel of 17, and final microbevel of 20 degrees per side. The edge would whittle hair off the medium stones.

I made 300 cuts into the poly cutting board I wanted to use, as I don't have any lumber around for a cutting board. I did this just to see what would happen to the edge. These were rocking cut, chef's style slices, as though dicing up a bell pepper. After these cuts, the edge would still whittle a beard hair. This knife has been used and at this point I found a small chip/dent in the edge in the area used for testing. I wasn't going to sharpen it out at this point, so off to the cutting board.

I began cutting 3/8" hemp rope from Lowe's, in sets of 20. Each time I alternated the direction of the slice, heel to tip for 20, tip to heel for 20. I tested all the way up to 400 cuts, testing for paper slicing after each 100 cuts. After 400, it would still slice paper cleanly on the first try. There was some snagging at the damaged area, and the chip/dent appeared to be a bit larger, but the rest of the edge cut paper no problem.

So tonight I removed the chip, resharpened the edge on just the 1000 King stone and 204. Then I repeated the rope cutting portion of the test. After 425 cuts, I still got clean slices in paper, both with and across the grain of the paper (top to bottom/side to side). Here is where my results differ pretty greatly. This knife is part of a set that cost $50. I'm guessing the steel is something like 5Cr13MoV or 440A or something, I don't know and it's not marked. I'm going to leave the edge as it is and continue, just to see how far it goes.
 
While I dig the fact that this test is getting folks to think, and getting people interested in testing, I'm afraid that using a kitchen knife to do the test is so far different as to not be comparable. I think the main thing to look at would be the huge difference in edge geometry and thickness. A Millie, the knife I do all my tests with, has a far different edge geometry than a knife specifically designed to be a kitchen slicer. I can see how your tests would yield different results. Using a knife that is 100% designed to be a slicer is different than taking that same knife and using it to cut wood, whittle tent stakes, cut plastic zip ties, slice bailing twine, etc. I'm simply saying that I am testing an all around, using knife, with a blade that is much thicker, much more designed to be an all around knife, not a true designed "kitchen slicer". Not an apples to apples test. I would definitely see how a kitchen knife, even in an inferior steel would out slice a Military.
 
Can you get some measurements on the edge geometry? The primary grind is very different, as this in 1/16" thick with a full flat grind. The edge angle is slightly thinner for your Military, at 17 vs my 17/20 microbevel, and my edge was finished finer, at least I assume the Spyderco medium triangle is finer than DMT 600.
 
Ulf Krogstad said:
Gotch ya. Just bought a Lionsteel SR2a and a contego so might try a rope cutting edge of my own against Sleipner,M4 and D2 from Adamas. Espeically want to see how much better the Sleipner is than D2 since it's supposed to be a better version of D2.
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LionSteel SR-2A with its 3.1" blade going up against the much longer blades of Benchmade Adamas (3.82") or Contego (3.98") is not a fair comparison. LionSteel SR-1 Ti (3.7") would be a better match.
 
me2 said:
Ok, I repeated my test from a couple nights ago, so I'll share it here. Just remember, you asked for it.

I have a new kitchen knife I received for Christmas from my wife. I marked a 3" section of the blade so it would at least have that as similar to the test knives in the rest of the thread. I sharpened it on a 220 grit Norton water stone, followed by 1000 grit King and then the medium 204 (Sharpmaker) rods at a back bevel of 17, and final microbevel of 20 degrees per side. The edge would whittle hair off the medium stones.

I made 300 cuts into the poly cutting board I wanted to use, as I don't have any lumber around for a cutting board. I did this just to see what would happen to the edge. These were rocking cut, chef's style slices, as though dicing up a bell pepper. After these cuts, the edge would still whittle a beard hair. This knife has been used and at this point I found a small chip/dent in the edge in the area used for testing. I wasn't going to sharpen it out at this point, so off to the cutting board.

I began cutting 3/8" hemp rope from Lowe's, in sets of 20. Each time I alternated the direction of the slice, heel to tip for 20, tip to heel for 20. I tested all the way up to 400 cuts, testing for paper slicing after each 100 cuts. After 400, it would still slice paper cleanly on the first try. There was some snagging at the damaged area, and the chip/dent appeared to be a bit larger, but the rest of the edge cut paper no problem.

So tonight I removed the chip, resharpened the edge on just the 1000 King stone and 204. Then I repeated the rope cutting portion of the test. After 425 cuts, I still got clean slices in paper, both with and across the grain of the paper (top to bottom/side to side). Here is where my results differ pretty greatly. This knife is part of a set that cost $50. I'm guessing the steel is something like 5Cr13MoV or 440A or something, I don't know and it's not marked. I'm going to leave the edge as it is and continue, just to see how far it goes.
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I have a thirty year old German stainless chef's knife that I've cleaned up and reground a bit that holds an edge brilliantly. For my definition of brilliantly, no doubt different from your definition of brilliantly. When I cut vegetables that have a skin, like tomatoes or peppers, if the knife does not immediately fall through the vegetable when I begin slicing I sharpen the knife. This annoys my wife because sometimes I run to my sharpening bench in the middle of cooking dinner, hollering over my shoulder not to let anything burn while I'm gone.
My point is that everybody has a different tolerance for dull and a different cutting technique. I think that when your kitchen knife chipped after rocking back and forth on the cutting board it failed the "Vegas" test even before you started cutting rope. Good for you that this didn't trigger a compulsive need to sharpen the knife. Sometimes you just need to get to work with the tool at hand as it is without a lot of fussing around.
 
I don't think the chip/dent was caused by the cutting board contacts before the rope cutting. It most likely came from the sink and one accidental trip through the dishwasher. I just didn't notice it until later. Were the steel prone to cutting board damage, itwould have shown up in the later rope cutting as well. Contact with the cutting board was considerably harder during the rope cutting.
 
me2 said:
I don't think the chip/dent was caused by the cutting board contacts before the rope cutting. It most likely came from the sink and one accidental trip through the dishwasher. I just didn't notice it until later. Were the steel prone to cutting board damage, itwould have shown up in the later rope cutting as well. Contact with the cutting board was considerably harder during the rope cutting.
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Before this gets too carried away here and it's looking to go in that direction I would like to point out a few things that haven't been addressed and or talked around for whatever reason....

Kitchen knives are much thinner than a Spyderco Military, both behind the edge and spine thickness so comparing them isn't an apples to apples comparison by any means and to imply that would be bias..

It will make a big difference in the results.....

I just tested a Chicago Cutlery Kitchen knife today to keep some things in perspective here....

.018" behind the edge.
1/16" spine thickness
5" blade....
15 DPS, 400 grit Silicon Carbide, same as I always use.

220 Cuts on 5/8" Manila rope and it was done at 20 pounds of down force.

Pretty dull as it would barely slice paper after.....

Spyderco Military's in general are:

.025" - .028" behind the edge, this one is actually .030" - .033"
1/8" Spine thickness
4" Blade
XHP Military 240 Cuts....


Now some would believe or want others to believe that the Chicago Cutlery steel is awesome in that it came close to CTS-XHP at 220 vs 240....

Reality is the knives are way too different to do a direct comparison so it's just comparing knives, steel doesn't really matter here..... Kitchen Knife to a Spyderco Military...

Trying to bring this back to reality here..... And yes I already knew what would happen before I tested the Kitchen knife with it being thinner..... A lot thinner..... at .018" compared to .030" to .033" for the Military.....
 
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Thats pretty reasonable for the Military. Looking at it you'd think it would be thinner.
 
me2 said:
Thats pretty reasonable for the Military. Looking at it you'd think it would be thinner.
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They aren't bad, thinner than most production blades in the same range. :)

But still thick compared to kitchen knives.... I picked one that wasn't too thin behind the edge at .018"...... Still ended up with chips and rolls in the edge though....

We have to keep the comparisons closer spec wise to keep them bias free and realistic. :)
 
Vegas Blade addressed the geometry differences in his first follow up post. The comparison was done to see what would happen. Carry on with the Military rope cutting. I'll start another thread for the stuff I'm doing.
 
me2 said:
Vegas Blade addressed the geometry differences in his first follow up post. The comparison was done to see what would happen. Carry on with the Military rope cutting. I'll start another thread for the stuff I'm doing.
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The reason why I keep them separated is I know the results will be much different so as not to confuse people...
 
It seems like some folks are missing what Ankerson and I are saying, and trying to demonstrate. It's not about the steel unless you LET IT BE about the steel. Guys, it's simple here, and I'm not being an a$$, but the entire convept has to be the elimination of variables. If we don't eliminate variables we don't have a true steel test.

Ulf, that test, while it may be fun to do, WILL NOT show you the superior steel. I will call that test before you start it. The 810 Contego in M4 will win, hands down, and by a wide margin. Is it because its a better steel?? Yes, but to assume that would be a false assumption about the test. It will win because the 810 has a beautiful flat ground, slicing edge. The Adamas and the Lionsteel are FAR thicker behind the edge, and the performance will noticeably suffer in a test against a pure slicer like the 810. This is why it's critical to compare the steels alone. Elimination of variables is the key to a real answer. :)

Now everyone go cut some stuff and start threads about it. :)
 
Vegas Blade said:
It seems like some folks are missing what Ankerson and I are saying, and trying to demonstrate. It's not about the steel unless you LET IT BE about the steel. Guys, it's simple here, and I'm not being an a$$, but the entire convept has to be the elimination of variables. If we don't eliminate variables we don't have a true steel test.

Ulf, that test, while it may be fun to do, WILL NOT show you the superior steel. I will call that test before you start it. The 810 Contego in M4 will win, hands down, and by a wide margin. Is it because its a better steel?? Yes, but to assume that would be a false assumption about the test. It will win because the 810 has a beautiful flat ground, slicing edge. The Adamas and the Lionsteel are FAR thicker behind the edge, and the performance will noticeably suffer in a test against a pure slicer like the 810. This is why it's critical to compare the steels alone. Elimination of variables is the key to a real answer. :)

Now everyone go cut some stuff and start threads about it. :)
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Now we have numbers of a knife handy that was already posted on my thread that is the same thickness behind the edge as the Kitchen knife, but still at 1/8" thick spine compared to 1/16" for the kitchen knife....

Spyderco S110V Mule at 600 cuts....

Kitchen knife ...... 220 cuts......

Still not really a fair comparison, non biased etc due to the differences in the knives...... In a non biased test the difference would be even larger than it already is....
 
So given that edge geometry is a significant contributor to rope cutting edge holding tests, what does it mean when a knife with thicker geometry and a shorter blade in a 420HC class steel can cut the 3/8" rope 300 times and still cut notebook paper? I checked a Gerber Remix and made it to 300 cuts and still could slice notebook paper on the first try. The edge is 0.03" at the top of the bevel with a 3" long blade.
 
Vegas Blade said:
It seems like some folks are missing what Ankerson and I are saying, and trying to demonstrate. It's not about the steel unless you LET IT BE about the steel. Guys, it's simple here, and I'm not being an a$$, but the entire convept has to be the elimination of variables. If we don't eliminate variables we don't have a true steel test.

Ulf, that test, while it may be fun to do, WILL NOT show you the superior steel. I will call that test before you start it. The 810 Contego in M4 will win, hands down, and by a wide margin. Is it because its a better steel?? Yes, but to assume that would be a false assumption about the test. It will win because the 810 has a beautiful flat ground, slicing edge. The Adamas and the Lionsteel are FAR thicker behind the edge, and the performance will noticeably suffer in a test against a pure slicer like the 810. This is why it's critical to compare the steels alone. Elimination of variables is the key to a real answer. :)

Now everyone go cut some stuff and start threads about it. :)
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I know it wouldn't be a fair test cause their not the same design,shape,blade length ect. All your doing is repeating what Ankerson has done already and others. I don't give a fuck. I know either the contego or lionsteel would win hands down. Your just repeating shit people have said a thousnad times. Either way i don't fuckin care. For your next test why don't you see how many of your knives you can shove up your ass before you die.:) Good luck your scientific tests professor.:)
 
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