M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

Ankerson said:
Hair Whittling is easy, all the knives I sharpen will do it with no problem.

My Custom Demko here., the hard part is not cutting the hair because they are so sharp once I am done. ;)

That's why I use the TP test, if it will slice TP like in my video it will whittle hair easy, just different levels of sharpness.

DSC_0777_cropped.jpg
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I am not sure I see this hair being whittled.

I meant something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/nozh2002?feature=mhum#p/u/22/S-3lFQjx5i4

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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PatriotDan said:
If in the name of discussion we would want to find out how much the wood base effects results, two runs of the test would be needed. One having a wooded base and another one with a cut in it to avoid blade edge touching the wood.

Comparing the results would hopefully tell if the wood base had significant effect? Im certainly not demanding anyone to do it just thinking what would be the work required...
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That would only show that there is a difference between a wood base and no wood. However if your useing the same test to compare two knives it doesn't matter if you have a wood base or not. In other words to really see if there is any difference you would need to run 4 tests. 1 with knife a and wood base. 2 with knife b and wood base. then do the same test without the wood base. then compare the results from both groups. Compareing cutting with one knife with and without a wood base is not going to tell you anything exept there is a difference between useing a base and not useing one. And that is what Vassilly is not understanding. He hasn't shown the cutting board makes any difference in the results. Vassilli thinks everyone testing should do tests his way to be valid. I remember another tester who also thought he knew it all and Vassili acts just like him.
 
Ankerson said:
Mine would slice right through the hair if I did that, I know because I have tried it that way. ;)

What I do is pull it straight across the edge and it still cuts it most of the time, but then I am talking about very thin hair also.

I would have to dull the edge to do what you did... ;)
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Yes, this is common mistake. It is not duller it is finer, in your case most likely hair just caught into some chip on the edge and ripped off right away. If you dull your knife it will not whittle it at all. But if you right - I guess it will not be too hard for you to "dull" it and show me real whittling?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
db said:
That would only show that there is a difference between a wood base and no wood. However if your useing the same test to compare two knives it doesn't matter if you have a wood base or not. In other words to really see if there is any difference you would need to run 4 tests. 1 with knife a and wood base. 2 with knife b and wood base. then do the same test without the wood base. then compare the results from both groups. Compareing cutting with one knife with and without a wood base is not going to tell you anything exept there is a difference between useing a base and not useing one. And that is what Vassilly is not understanding. He hasn't shown the cutting board makes any difference in the results. Vassilli thinks everyone testing should do tests his way to be valid. I remember another tester who also thought he knew it all and Vassili acts just like him.
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Well, I say what I found - wood base have significant effect on the test results, it is easy to check - and I did. However if rope cut is solid and clear load, there is always same 1/2" to cut. with wooden it is absolutely out of control.

Just imagine removing rope and do same with scratching empty wooden base - how to make sure that load is same? I would imagine putting same weight on the spine while moving edge among wood with same speed, choosing always different path - not touched before...

But this is not what happening at the end of rope cut when edge hit wooden base with random force in random place! This is to me too much random and uncontrollable load. Also re-curve prevent this for BM710 and so results are too different.

Thanks, Vassili.

Can we make it not personal. WTF? Vassili here, Vassili there. I explained my point - if something is not clear to you - ask, if you able to answer intelligent way - please, do. If you not able to articulate your position, can you just not to turn it to some kind of cheap soap opera drama?
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, I say what I found - wood base have significant effect on the test results, it is easy to check - and I did.
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Please this is not clear. What did you do and what results did it change?
However if rope cut is solid and clear load, there is always same 1/2" to cut. with wooden it is absolutely out of control.

Just imagine removing rope and do same with scratching empty wooden base - how to make sure that load is same? I would imagine putting same weight on the spine while moving edge among wood with same speed, choosing always different path - not touched before...

But this is not what happening at the end of rope cut when edge hit wooden base with random force in random place! This is to me too much random and uncontrollable load. Also re-curve prevent this for BM710 and so results are too different.
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No kidding we all know there is a difference useing a cutting board and not useing one. That is like saying there is a difference between cutting wood and air. You haven't shown that useing a cutting board effects any test results only that there is a difference in useing one and not useing one. If you cann't understand that I think you need to think about this a little harder.

Thanks, Vassili.

Can we make it not personal. WTF? Vassili here, Vassili there. I explained my point - if something is not clear to you - ask, if you able to answer intelligent way - please, do. If you not able to articulate your position, can you just not to turn it to some kind of cheap soap opera drama?
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I think you'd be smart to take your own advice.
 
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nozh2002 said:
Yes, this is common mistake. It is not duller it is finer, in your case most likely hair just caught into some chip on the edge and ripped off right away. If you dull your knife it will not whittle it at all. But if you right - I guess it will not be too hard for you to "dull" it and show me real whittling?

Thanks, Vassili.
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Hardly, I don't think you get it... ;)
 
nozh2002 said:
Yes, this is common mistake. It is not duller it is finer, in your case most likely hair just caught into some chip on the edge and ripped off right away. If you dull your knife it will not whittle it at all. But if you right - I guess it will not be too hard for you to "dull" it and show me real whittling?

Thanks, Vassili.
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Had to make the TP video and slice some paper to get the BM dull enough so it wouldn't cut right through the hair everytime. Still was one piece of hair that was cut through once. ;)

Cropped_BM.jpg


BM_Cropped_2.jpg
 
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I think we have a winner , Ankerson´s knife is much sharper !



1234,,,,:D
 
Ankerson said:
Hardly, I don't think you get it... ;)
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Well, what I see so far is that you need too much force to engage edge penetration into hair to cut. With this it is not able to whittle, but cut through - too much force, too much speed. It is not whittling, but chopping.

Again if you think you right - just dull your edge and do same whittling I do on that video.

I did this few years ago first and doing this till then, I know what I am talking bout. And I also cut TP few years ago - it is more hand trick then sharpness.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, what I see so far is that you need too much force to engage edge penetration into hair to cut. With this it is not able to whittle, but cut through - too much force, too much speed. It is not whittling, but chopping.

Again if you think you right - just dull your edge and do same whittling I do on that video.

I did this few years ago first and doing this till then, I know what I am talking bout. And I also cut TP few years ago - it is more hand trick then sharpness.

Thanks, Vassili.
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Oh OK the weight of the hair is too heavy huh... :rolleyes:

And I split that one hair in 3 places after I dulled it....

I don't think you know what sharp really is.

Just laying the hair across the blade and it gets cut through with just the weight of the hair alone.

My Camera won't shoot video that close with the lenses I have currently, I don't have a Micro Lens.

I saw that TP video you made and you tore the heck out of it. ;)

No hand trick to it at all, it's either sharp enough or it's not.
 
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Ankerson said:
Oh OK the weight of the hair is too heavy huh... :rolleyes:

And I split that one hair in 3 places after I dulled it....

I don't think you know what sharp really is.

Just laying the hair across the blade and it gets cut through with just the weight of the hair alone.

My Camera won't shoot video that close with the lenses I have currently, I don't have a Micro Lens.

I saw that TP video you made and you tore the heck out of it. ;)

No hand trick to it at all, it's either sharp enough or it's not.
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Thanks, I guess I got it. I do not think I am interested any more. Have a fun.

Vassili.
 
but what kind of tp is it? charmin? scott?

because the cross grain structure of the ultra soft charmin will have a significant effect on the overall cutting performance of the blade.

i notice you are holding it between your thumb-pinkie and pointer-ring fingers. clearly, the tension you have created by stretching the tp between your fingers affects the overall cutting performance.

you must try tossing the tp square in the air, and karate-chopping it with your knife. then i will believe it is really sharp.

and let me know when you can whittle the wing of a fly.




kidding buddy, that tp slice is impressive. i tried, and i dont have any knives that can make that cut.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
but what kind of tp is it? charmin? scott?

because the cross grain structure of the ultra soft charmin will have a significant effect on the overall cutting performance of the blade.

i notice you are holding it between your thumb-pinkie and pointer-ring fingers. clearly, the tension you have created by stretching the tp between your fingers affects the overall cutting performance.

you must try tossing the tp square in the air, and karate-chopping it with your knife. then i will believe it is really sharp.

and let me know when you can whittle the wing of a fly.




kidding buddy, that tp slice is impressive. i tried, and i dont have any knives that can make that cut.
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Thanks Mark. :D

It's Charman, and I'm not putting any pressure on it, just holding it. :)

I don't think I can do the karate chopping thing... :eek:

Wing of a fly... :eek:

Need one of those Eyeball Scalpels for that I think. :D
 
db said:
That would only show that there is a difference between a wood base and no wood. However if your useing the same test to compare two knives it doesn't matter if you have a wood base or not. In other words to really see if there is any difference you would need to run 4 tests. 1 with knife a and wood base. 2 with knife b and wood base. then do the same test without the wood base. then compare the results from both groups. Compareing cutting with one knife with and without a wood base is not going to tell you anything exept there is a difference between useing a base and not useing one. And that is what Vassilly is not understanding. He hasn't shown the cutting board makes any difference in the results. Vassilli thinks everyone testing should do tests his way to be valid. I remember another tester who also thought he knew it all and Vassili acts just like him.
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Exactly, I agree with you about the amount of tests needed. I meant to say two runs of comparative tests.
 
If I may for a moment be so bold, Jim, I'd like to pass along some information gleaned from an acquaintance of mine, who is a Tribologist currently doing research at the University of Florida. Tribology is of course the science that measures interacting surfaces in relative motion, and Dr. Dan logged into Bladeforums upon my urging to have a look at your results. He was most interested in the toilet tissue cutting and after consulting his reference materials came to the definitive conclusion that the reason Vassili's TP slicing differed from yours was due to a lessening of the coefficient of friction due to the high probability that Vasseli's was used.
 
PatriotDan said:
Exactly, I agree with you about the amount of tests needed. I meant to say two runs of comparative tests.
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Yup and truthfully I'm assumeing we don't even need that. It seems many are getting repeteable results useing a cutting board so In my mind the hole arguement is invalid.Also as I'm mainly a user and not a tester about 90% of the time I look for something to cut on when I have the chance. So what kind of test is valid for real world use? Thats the real trick isn't it?
 
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