M4 Military

No, not in a Military at this time. sorry.

We do have a mule team in M4 and a Gayle Bradley folder in M4 "in-the-works".

sal
 
Looking foreward to both. Hopefully the Gayle Bradley folder will make it to production. Sal, have you heard about the new ( to me anyhow) CPM stainless called CPM S110V ? I believe Thomas W. stated they were looking at it, calling it a "S90V on steroids".

C 2.8
CH 14 to 15
moly 3.50
V 9.0
Niobium (Columbium) 3.50%
etc.

looks like a high speed stainless to me.
 
The Mastiff said:
Looking foreward to both. Hopefully the Gayle Bradley folder will make it to production. Sal, have you heard about the new ( to me anyhow) CPM stainless called CPM S110V ? I believe Thomas W. stated they were looking at it, calling it a "S90V on steroids".

C 2.8
CH 14 to 15
moly 3.50
V 9.0
Niobium (Columbium) 3.50%
etc.

looks like a high speed stainless to me.
Click to expand...

We've tested it and it tested very well. We've got a mule team planned for it. It sounds great, but I always like some "real world" testing. S90V has shown its muscle in the "real world"..

sal
 
Yes, S90V has been producing for a while now. It's a very good steel. I'm glad to find out you are a few steps ahead as usual. It wouldn't be the same if you weren't. :)

Looking foreward to it very much! Thank you Sal. Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Looking foreward to both. Hopefully the Gayle Bradley folder will make it to production. Sal, have you heard about the new ( to me anyhow) CPM stainless called CPM S110V ? I believe Thomas W. stated they were looking at it, calling it a "S90V on steroids".

C 2.8
CH 14 to 15
moly 3.50
V 9.0
Niobium (Columbium) 3.50%
etc.

looks like a high speed stainless to me.
Click to expand...

Are you sure about Niobium/Columbium?
 
*says a prayer for his credit card*
Click to expand...

Naturally. The cost of buying, working, heat treating and finishing M4 already precludes lower priced folders so my as well make it a good one. It's another mountain to climb for whatever production company makes it so it's only logical to do a good one. Gayle Bradley is one of the most experienced users/competitors who uses M4 so his namne and help with reccomended heat treats etc. is logical. Spyderco worked with and sponsored him for years.

Bring it on Spyderco. I'll begin saving, Joe
 
Mastiff - Benchmade is now offering limited runs of Activators in M4. Hideous pricing though.
 
Thanks Huugh. They made only 53 of them. Pretty costly, what amounts to a custom. Sort of.

It's the folders that people are asking for. Custom fixed blade knives have been available in CPM M4/A11 for some time now. Spyderco is doing a Mule team knife in it, and it likely will come in less than the four and a half hundred mark. We'll see though.

Right now it shows how hungry the market is for this sort of thing. Benchmade has the whole playing field essentially to themselves currently. Heck, they could have charged more as the only game in town.

That will change.

Franco, The above composition was given to me by someone that knows what he is talking about. Niobium use goes back to the early days of trying to improve "red hardness" in what became the class of "high speed steels". It's nothing new as such, going back to the early 20th century at least.

Other elements and combinations of elements replaced it mostly IIRC, starting with the "T" series, or maybe "M" series of high speed steels. Why it would be used in a modern highly alloyed stainless "super" steel is one for the metallurgists, or guys like Sal, Phil Wilson, The people at crucible, who started it all way back when, and a few others who sometimes post here.

In other words it's well over my head, but , yes, it's supposed to be there. Joe
 
Here is some interesting information about Niobium (Nb)

Niobium (Columbium) increases the yield strength and, to a lesser degree, the tensile strength of carbon steel. The addition of small amounts of Niobium can significantly increase the yield strength of steels. Niobium can also have a moderate precipitation strengthening effect. Its main contributions are to form precipitates above the transformation temperature, and to retard the recrystallization of austenite, thus promoting a fine-grain microstructure having improved strength and toughness.

http://www.makinamuhendisi.com/idx/6/053/Steel-Dictionary/article/Steel-Alloys.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niobium

brian
 
The primary use for niobium in this case is to reduce the amount of chromium that is tied up in carbides, as niobium is even more reactive than vanadium when it comes to forming carbides. This is stated in the patent for S110V.

There is also a Crucible patent for 3V modified by replacing some vanadium with niobium. Apparently the niobium and vanadium carbides form separately when the steel is solidified (in powder) so the size of the carbides is reduced and the toughness is increased.

I wish they would come out with a modified S30V using niobium.
 
Thanks. Larrin, you are definitely one of the "others" I was hoping would post about this. Mete too.
Brian Huegel thank you too for contributing.

So I guess we wait and see what happens next. Joe
 
I wish they would come out with a modified S30V using niobium.
Click to expand...

Larrin, isn't the small bit of nitrogen in S30V supposed to do the same thing?

BTW, I'm assuming in your explanation above that leaving more chromium out of carbides is a way to improve on S90V's corrosion resistance while leaving the wear resistance intact, and possibly (?) improving toughness. Is that what your explanation means in laymans terms?

Thanks, Joe
 
I am a little new to steel materials i only started learning about knives and knife makers about a year ago.(before then i thought my little swiss folder i had since i was 6 was was pretty good) So could some one explain to me what M4 is.
 
CPM M4/A11 is a high speed steel. (It doesn't lose strength or wear resistance when it gets hot. Red hot like happens in high speed drills, saws, cutters, etc that have to work hard, last a long time ( some parts are difficult to change so the longer the part goes before needing a change the better your line runs)

Typically steels lose strength rapidly when hot. Witness how the world trade centers steel supports lost strength long before they melted, causing failure). High speed steels are designed for hot environments needing great wear resistance. CPM M4 is a steel that has great wear resistance, and keeps it at high temps. Due to it's composition and the process by which it's made it also has pretty good toughness and shock resistance. That's something that typically isn't available in super high speed steels and steels with very high wear resistance.

Having this combination of strengths like it does pretty much insures that it's going to be a rare, and expensive steel. Due to it's nature it is also difficult to heat treat, which is near or at the limit of most heat treating equipment. This also brings cost up.

Something so wear resistant takes a lot of work to make it into a knife. The cost, specialized equipment, and difficulty working this steel insures that it's not a common steel that you see even amongst custom knifemakers.

Untill very recently the thought of it in a production knife has been just a dream, despite the success of the steel, and it's obvious superiority for certain competition blades.

It looks as though we are going to see some knives in it due to some very dedicated knife industry pioneers. Joe

stuff comparing steels http://www.florida-knife.com/wear.html other page has good stuff. don't miss these other tables. Recall this leaves out stainless steels & has tool steels only.http://www.florida-knife.com/material.html

more stuff http://www.knifeseek.com/workshop/tut_composition_primos.shtml

Crucible's own webpage on their product. They call it CPM M4. Another manufacturer makes it using the same product as A11 http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsM4v8.pdf?CFID=2084302&CFTOKEN=11649089

Crucibles data sheets: http://www.crucibleservice.com/datasheets/index.cfm
 
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The Mastiff said:
Larrin, isn't the small bit of nitrogen in S30V supposed to do the same thing?

BTW, I'm assuming in your explanation above that leaving more chromium out of carbides is a way to improve on S90V's corrosion resistance while leaving the wear resistance intact, and possibly (?) improving toughness. Is that what your explanation means in laymans terms?

Thanks, Joe
Click to expand...
Most of the CPM grades have a small amount of nitrogen, which does indeed increase corrosion resistance; however, niobium and nitrogen don't do the same thing. I am hoping that having some of the vanadium replaced with niobium would decrease carbide size for increased toughness, keep more chromium in solution for corrosion resistance, and increase wear resistance through having more MC carbide (mostly VC and NbC) which is considerably harder than the M7C3 carbide, which is formed mostly from chromium. Someone should start a petition. :)
 
Larrin, I'm doing my best to follow. Thank you for being patient. You stated :
I am hoping that having some of the vanadium replaced with niobium would decrease carbide size for increased toughness,
Click to expand...

The Vanadium percentage is the same ( %9) in both steels. Does Niobium decrease the amount of vanadium available, or just decrease the size of the vanadium carbides, as well as freeing up some chromium? I understand how smaller carbides can increase toughness but You lost me. I thought all Vanadium carbides are of a certain size range( and hardness), and you can't change that, just remove some or replace them with a different kind of carbide.

If what you just described happened, it would decrease the wear resistance in comparison to S90V, as well as hopefully increase toughness and corrosion resistance. I was under the impression the niobium was there to increase the corrosion resistance, while keeping S90V's famous wear rsistance the same. The whole idea of S110V is it's supposed to be an improved S90V.

If they wanted smaller carbides, they wouldn't need %9 of vanadium in the steel. Vanadium is expensive.There would be cheaper ways of doing it. A lot of people love S90V's performance, large "devil worshipping" ( as Thom stated once) vanadium carbides and all. It's only real knock is it's corrosion resistance. It's toughness is already better than S60V, and is similar to S30V. Not bad for highly alloyed stainless steels with huge wear resistance.

Like I said, I'm getting confused. I thought I had a handle on it before, but that's the way it goes I guess. Joe
 
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