M4

Walt2

Walt2

Joined
Mar 13, 2001
Messages
1,157
I have heard that it is rumored that Spyderco is considering something in M4. Sal, do you have any info on this?
 
YAHOO!
We've gone from "what do you think?" to "we are considering."

This calls for a celebration.
 
Sal, can you try to make at least one slicer to try and not just choppers. It's supposed to be good at both but I have much more uses for smaller slicing knives personally. A folder in M4 would actually be nice in fact. Joe
 
I got a small slicer in the form of my Krein Ultimate Caper in CPM M4 for Christmas. So far it has performed very well with no chipping issues and good edge retention, though I haven't used it nearly enough to see how it rates in performance compared to ZDP 189 or S30V. I will try to compare it in some rope slicing and cardboard slicing tests side by side to see how they rate against each other. On paper it looks like it should be a good performer, but I'll have to see how the real world testing pans out. Tom Krein is really impressed with how sharp the steel gets, and the edge that came on the knife was extremely impressive for a 120 grit finish (or any finish for that matter), as it tree topped arm hair with gusto and slices very well. Even after some light cutting of plastic packaging and cardboard it still shaves a bit above the skin and slices very well. After I dull it out and try different sharpening techniques and grits on it I'll have a bit of feedback for you guys on what kind of edge it takes. No problems with corrosion at all so far, and all I have been doing is keeping it dry without putting any oil on the blade.

Mike
 
gunmike1 said:
I got a small slicer in the form of my Krein Ultimate Caper in CPM M4 for Christmas. So far it has performed very well with no chipping issues and good edge retention, though I haven't used it nearly enough to see how it rates in performance compared to ZDP 189 or S30V. I will try to compare it in some rope slicing and cardboard slicing tests side by side to see how they rate against each other. On paper it looks like it should be a good performer, but I'll have to see how the real world testing pans out. Tom Krein is really impressed with how sharp the steel gets, and the edge that came on the knife was extremely impressive for a 120 grit finish (or any finish for that matter), as it tree topped arm hair with gusto and slices very well. Even after some light cutting of plastic packaging and cardboard it still shaves a bit above the skin and slices very well. After I dull it out and try different sharpening techniques and grits on it I'll have a bit of feedback for you guys on what kind of edge it takes. No problems with corrosion at all so far, and all I have been doing is keeping it dry without putting any oil on the blade.

Mike
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Did you purchase this direct from Tom or through a dealer?

Steve
 
Lycosa said:
What are the "pro's" of M4? Will this be the new Super steel?
Lycosa
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On paper it combines good toughness with very high wear resistance. The cons are that it is non-stainless, and therefore a large portion of the knife buying public will be uninterested immediately due to that fact.

Mike
 
Thanks Gunmike. That's too bad. Tool steels are the best cutters. It does not take much to maintain them but I hear ya. Phill Hartsfield told me years ago that he tried all the SS, and nothing cuts better than tool steel. HNY!
Lycosa
 
M4 looks great on paper(a little better than D2&M2 toughness-wise with increased wear resistance), but could feasibly be anywhere from ~58 to 65Rc according to the Crucible data sheet. Curious as to what hardness Spyderco will shoot for.
Either way I'd like to try it out. Seems like it could be well suited to most any size folding knife.
I'd love to see a limited run of the Calypso Jr. ltwt. in this material. Better yet a full-size Calypso, but I guess that's just a dream.
Looking forward to any more info from Sal, or user comments.
 
For $.02, I wouldn't mind a Military in the metal.

It would go with my BG42, CPMD2, S30V, 440V, and ATS34.

A ZDP189 Military variant would also be pleasant.
 
As an update, I just dulled out and sharpened my M4 Ultimate Caper. It cut a tremendous amount of cardboard, some plastic bottles, and some rope before I decided it needed some sharpening. Even though it was not shaving at all, it was still cutting cardboard very good due to the thin geometry (.007" thick edge at a tad under 10 per side). Before sharpening I lightly cut the edge straight into the Spyderco fine stone a couple times to remove all weakened steel.

I decided to put on a 14-15 per side microbevel. The DMT coarse put on a hair popping edge that I liked a lot for it's slicing aggression and smooth shaving. DMT fine didn't do much to improve the DMT Coarse finish. When I went to the Spyderco medium stone I got a tree topping edge, which is very good for that grit. At Spyderco fine I got an edge that easily cuts free hanging hair and also whittled some hair, but didn't consistently whittle all hair that I tried. At Spyderco Ultra Fine it was whittling hair very good, which is a standard I shoot for in my edges. Usually I have to use 3M 1 micron lapping film or finer to get an edge this sharp. I am very impressed so far with the edge this steel takes, especially since my body and mind don't feel at their peak for sharpening right now.

A couple other notes are that there was no microchipping at all from the cutting, and the steel is very crisp and resistant to burring during sharpening. I thought I might have to use my waterstones, as I have had problems in the past getting a burr free edge on ZDP 189 with my ceramic stones, but no problems at all with burring on this one. Also, not even a hint of rust so far in my small amount of cutting. It is usually pretty dry where I live, but it has been very foggy and has rained the last couple times I carried it, and just wiping it down to keep it dry has been all of the maintenance required.

Now I may have to break out the lapping films to see if I can get this thing really sharp, but I am pretty tired and sore from the gym this morning.

Mike
 
Gunmike, do you like this better than full hard M2 for a slicer? What grit are you going to take it up to? I always like to hear experiences at this level as I'm not equipped to go above 8,000 grit/3micron myself. A lot of steels I like to use much coarser, such as D2, Vascowear, most high wear stainless or stainless tool steels etc., BG42 being one exception. It loves a good polish. Joe
 
I hope they are also going to use this steel in one of there smaller knives. The big ones or not so practical where I live, in this is a steel that begs to be used.

JD
 
We'd more than likely begin with an M4 "Mule Team" Fixed blade model, assuming the first "Mule Team" knife is somewhat successful.

M4 is one of Crucible's oldest powdered metals. It's not been used much for knives before. It's been "resurrected" mostly by Warren Osbourne. Warren is an excellent custom knife-maker and designer.

Scott Devanna is a neighbor of Warren's, and Scott is also our "Knife-Junky" guru metalurgist from Crucible.

Gayle Bradley, another excellent custom knife-maker, is also a neighbor of Warren's.

All three are heavy into cutting competitions (Bladesports).

Warren is pretty obsessive-compulsive, (that's what makes him great) and he, Scott and Gayle have been experimenting with many steels in an effort to find the best steel to use for the Bladesports competition. They've pretty much decided (for now) that Crucible's M4 is it.

That's the "Texas camp". Gayle was the Cutting competition champ last year and still holds the record for water bottle cut in one pass. I believe Warren still holds the record for 2X4 chop.

FYI, Ed Schempp and Jose Lopez (also excellent knife-makers) are part of the "North-West-Pacific" camp. At this time, they lean towards 52100 as the best stel for Bladesports.

They do Bladesports training and certification in Texas and Washington, and I understand they're also setting up training and cert in the UK.

Bladesports is an exciting and fast growing sport. There are cutters and makers that can get you trained and even make a knife for you. Regardless of the steel, these knives are quite awesome. The sport has been developing for a number of years. Bruce Voyles and Dan Winkler were also quite effective in getting it off the ground.

The new "course-cut" competition seems to be more popular.

Maybe we can get some of those involved to chime in. If you are interested in knives, especially performing knives, I would suggest you look into Bladesports International.

sal
 
The Mastiff said:
Gunmike, do you like this better than full hard M2 for a slicer? What grit are you going to take it up to? I always like to hear experiences at this level as I'm not equipped to go above 8,000 grit/3micron myself. A lot of steels I like to use much coarser, such as D2, Vascowear, most high wear stainless or stainless tool steels etc., BG42 being one exception. It loves a good polish. Joe
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I haven't used full hard M2 yet, so I can't commnt on that steel. I would love to try some, and actually have some hacksaw blades that just need some grinding (VERY difficult task) and I will have myself one to try out.

The edge at UF is very impressive, considering most rate that as about 4K-5K compared to waterstones, and it is as sharp as most of my 1 micron edges. I will also need to sharpen it up to 8K on my Shapton Glasstones to see how that does, but for convenience and quick sharpening the Spyderco ceramics are hard to beat. I will bring it up to .3 micron at some point and see how it does, and I imagine it will be extremely sharp. It will be interesting to see how it holds that extreme sharpness. The fact that it pops hairs at 325 grit is very encouraging for a long term slicing edge as well. I would realy like to see this steel in the Mule Team knife to compare it as a harder use steel as opposed to pure slicer as in my Ultimate Caper. It would also be interesting to do a direct comparison with the 52100 Mule team knife and see how each compares.

Mike
 
Sal stated:
We'd more than likely begin with an M4 "Mule Team" Fixed blade model, assuming the first "Mule Team" knife is somewhat successful.
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I would take a modest bet that the 52100 mule team blade will sell out in fairly short order. At the price you stated there are people that would buy 5 or more if allowed. In my opinion you selected a good, and well known performer for the first run. How that will translate down the road when you are using steels that are 3 times per pound what 52100 is currently going for, along with more difficult heat treats is anybodys guess. If you keep going after steels such as CPM M4 that people are dying to try it should be still selling out even at the higher prices.

Bladesports is gaining in popularity and profile to the point that Browning now offers an over the counter competition grade knife designed to compete, and not sit in a safe. It may not be able to compete with A Scott Devana, Gale Bradley, or Ed Schemp knife technology wise it does serve to give people a way in without having to make, or commission their knives. Hopefully it will give the sport itself a boost, as well as those offering hand made competition knives as an upgrade.

Still, the mule team project stands alone as the best chance for most of us to have a PM M4 knife put in our hands at an affordable price. My biggest fear isn't the knives not selling but the project becoming a resource drain on Spyderco where it just becomes not worth it to continue. That continues to be your call though Sal.

There are plenty of steels to keep interest up for quite a while though. Joe
 
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