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Machetes & Bush Knives
- Thread starter Horn Dog
- Start date
I have used a machete a lot in the cold, typically in the teens. Against popular opinion, I think I would RATHER have one in the cold than a knife, and here's why.
As I understand it, the problem with the cold is that it let's the steel change state slightly. There are terms for what happens, but basically, it lets a steel that was just fine become more brittle. That brittleness will stay even after the steel is warmer, as it is a physical change in the steel. That change is why people cryo treat tools, so as to complete the processes that may have a hard time normally.
This change will affect some steels more than others. Typically, the harder a steel is to heat treat properly, the more likely it is that the cold will affect it. Now that that's out of the way, here is my ASSUMPTION on machetes.
Because of their role, and cost, most machetes tend to be made with a low carbon steel. This keeps the steel from fracturing rather than simply deforming. Also, the heat treat tends to keep the tool at a spring hardness more so than a knife hardness. What this means is that there is less potential for change in the tool, due to lower carbon, and when that change happens, it is less likely to bring the hardness to a point where it will result in the blade becoming so brittle it is likely to break.
This is how I view machetes, but it does include some assumptions. If you can show me for a fact that some of this is wrong, please do, as it is important to me as well.
As I understand it, the problem with the cold is that it let's the steel change state slightly. There are terms for what happens, but basically, it lets a steel that was just fine become more brittle. That brittleness will stay even after the steel is warmer, as it is a physical change in the steel. That change is why people cryo treat tools, so as to complete the processes that may have a hard time normally.
This change will affect some steels more than others. Typically, the harder a steel is to heat treat properly, the more likely it is that the cold will affect it. Now that that's out of the way, here is my ASSUMPTION on machetes.
Because of their role, and cost, most machetes tend to be made with a low carbon steel. This keeps the steel from fracturing rather than simply deforming. Also, the heat treat tends to keep the tool at a spring hardness more so than a knife hardness. What this means is that there is less potential for change in the tool, due to lower carbon, and when that change happens, it is less likely to bring the hardness to a point where it will result in the blade becoming so brittle it is likely to break.
This is how I view machetes, but it does include some assumptions. If you can show me for a fact that some of this is wrong, please do, as it is important to me as well.
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- Jan 9, 2009
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So what does all this have to do with RAT Cutlery? Well, RAT is coming out with both the RC-10 and a machete. I'm sure the RC-10 will be a good useful knife, in the tradition of the Collins #18, even if it looks more modern. It likely won't be a big heavy 5/16" thick chopping monster, but a knife that can also be used to clear, like a machete. Probably like Jeff's RTAK designs.
But you might be surprised what a machete can do. Even a thin Tramontina can easily chop through some hard wood, with a little technique.
It can be used to make fuzz sticks for fire starting, too (don't laugh).
Some will tell you that a thin machete just can't be used to baton logs like a heavy blade will. Those people are wrong.
Yeah, the blade is bent like a pretzel, following the twisted grain of the wood. But it springs right back once the job is done.
And there you have it. No damage at all. It would have been so tragic for me to break my $6.00 wonder knife.
That is quite impressive, I wouldn't have thought a machete could handle anything like that!
Horn Dog,
Great post, as usual.
Great thread too.
I still have not purchased a machete yet and use two ~10" knives for trail maintenance (a swamprat battlerat and pacific cutlery bushmaster out of 440C that is pretty dinged up but still alive (handle sucks though)). Will be getting more workout this weekend too.
I am curious how a machete will hold up in the winter on the northern plains - might find out this year if I wait too long to get busy.
Will pick up a Condor, and looking forward as always to anything RC has to offer.
I always find the experiences of hard users interesting to read.
Great post, as usual.
Great thread too.
I still have not purchased a machete yet and use two ~10" knives for trail maintenance (a swamprat battlerat and pacific cutlery bushmaster out of 440C that is pretty dinged up but still alive (handle sucks though)). Will be getting more workout this weekend too.
I am curious how a machete will hold up in the winter on the northern plains - might find out this year if I wait too long to get busy.
Will pick up a Condor, and looking forward as always to anything RC has to offer.
I always find the experiences of hard users interesting to read.
R.A.T.
Randall's Adventure & Training
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- Feb 4, 2004
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- 10,400
Machetes are a lot softer on the Rc scale than your standard sheath knife. And while I'm sure there are cases that a sheath knife is better (perhaps the cold north?), you just can't beat a machete for general wilderness survival. Besides, in a lot of environments most survival stuff is already on the ground anyway. I break more stuff than I cut. Debris shelters rarely need anything living cut down, and what splitting you may need to do to get a fire going is easily done with a machete. I have cleaned animals in SA with a machete, but I like my folder or a fixed blade much better for that chore. I'm not dissing anyone's choice of survival tool. And since I only know enough about Northern survival to get me killed, I'm not even qualified to speak on the ability of a machete in the Northern woods. With that said, I also know there is a literal ton of bullshit when it comes to "survival" knives, as well as most other purpose designed knives. Machetes don't have the cool factor of most "survival" knives, they are longer, thus making them harder to pack, and they are flimsy so I can see why they have never caught on as the ultimate survival tool (which they are, IMO). Speaking of all of this I was out today with a machete harvesting fatwood and splitting it up in preparation for the winter coming.
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That Old Collins 18 bowie has gone through a myriad of changes on the handle. In their catalogue, it was called the 12" bowie. During WW2, Collins had to abandon the use of their cowhorn cause it was hard to obtain, so they switched to stacked leather. Then they turned to plastic some time during '42, calling it the A.A.F Survival. They also had a variety of stamps, for keen kutter and even Old Timer to name a few, but I dunno about True Temper. If the date was right, that very well could have been made by the actual True Temper factory.
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I live and hike/camp in the NE US. Most of the time I've used small knives while hiking. Not that I pack light. I usually have an axe or hachet with me, so I never had the need for anything else. I bought an RTAK II this summer, basically to see what all this big knife fuss was about. Trimming a Down tree with it I instantly saw the advantages to it. Being able to baton wood is also an added bonus.
I've carried machetes before on longer hikes, and they really just sat strapped to the side of my pack. Of course, there were 20 people on that hike, and no lack of axes and hachets around. I'm very interested in picking up another machete heari g you guys sing their praises. I feel silly asking it, but what uses would you recommend one for in the forest? Clearing brush is something not likely required, but nice to have for the few times it would be. Just wondering if my mind is missing some other uses. The odds of it being the only blade on me are low. (I do love me some of the smaller Bowies I have, and of course the rats).
As for camping in the north in survival situations, the most dangerous thing to watch for is overheating. Seen it get more people in trouble in the dead of winter than anything else.
I've carried machetes before on longer hikes, and they really just sat strapped to the side of my pack. Of course, there were 20 people on that hike, and no lack of axes and hachets around. I'm very interested in picking up another machete heari g you guys sing their praises. I feel silly asking it, but what uses would you recommend one for in the forest? Clearing brush is something not likely required, but nice to have for the few times it would be. Just wondering if my mind is missing some other uses. The odds of it being the only blade on me are low. (I do love me some of the smaller Bowies I have, and of course the rats).
As for camping in the north in survival situations, the most dangerous thing to watch for is overheating. Seen it get more people in trouble in the dead of winter than anything else.
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- Jul 22, 2005
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Kephart: Camping and Woodcraft
Woodcraft, Pg 193, middle of page:
"Speaking of nicks in the axe, beware of cutting into hemlocks or balsam knots; in trimming limbs close to such trees you can ruin the best steel that ever was made, for they are almost as hard as glass. If it must be done, strike gentle blows; hold the axe-head exactly perpendicular to the spot struck, and rigid, so it cannot glance in the least. The trick is similar to that of driving a bowie through a silver dollar without spoiling the knife's edge."
I think it can be done as long as you are careful. When I'm on the fast line, I'll post pics of chipped machetes.
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HD,
Great post as always. I have shifted my thinking over time about blade thickness. I used to be committed to the idea of thick heavy choppers (and still love them and buy them), but than realize that I was wearing a 12" Tram all summer here in Upstate NY. My most recent purchase was a David Farmer Custom Golok in 1/8" O-1 and I'm thinking that it could pretty easily be the "do everything" blade for me. Bottom line, you can function in a lot of environments with a a machete, IMHO.
Great post as always. I have shifted my thinking over time about blade thickness. I used to be committed to the idea of thick heavy choppers (and still love them and buy them), but than realize that I was wearing a 12" Tram all summer here in Upstate NY. My most recent purchase was a David Farmer Custom Golok in 1/8" O-1 and I'm thinking that it could pretty easily be the "do everything" blade for me. Bottom line, you can function in a lot of environments with a a machete, IMHO.
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Well, I moved to the deep, deep, deep south (if I lay on my bed wrong at night, my feet end up smelling like tequila and tacos) from the northeast.
I've always liked machetes for summer work, clearing fast growing vegetation and vines, but a hatchet or axe ruled for the winter and for hardwoods.
I moved down here with my collection of hatchets and small axes and now I realize, I should have sold them off and not bothered draging them 1500 miles.
Down here on the gulf coast, a machete does it all then some.
I've always liked machetes for summer work, clearing fast growing vegetation and vines, but a hatchet or axe ruled for the winter and for hardwoods.
I moved down here with my collection of hatchets and small axes and now I realize, I should have sold them off and not bothered draging them 1500 miles.
Down here on the gulf coast, a machete does it all then some.
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Well the vikings sure liked their axes and their puukos and that sure worked for them living in the northwoods. When in doubt, do what the locals are doing.
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Crap, now I need an F-250, a gigantic belt buckle and a landscaping trailer...
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I've had an idea for a North-East-specific breed of machete for a while. All the designs out there so far are primarily focused on the Southern regions. 
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There were actually two Collins models called the #18. The older #18 Bowie was a true Bowie with a 12" blade. Collins made swords and knives, too. But the short one with the 9" blade and big quillion was called the #18 machete. I had a chance at one of the green horn handled models, but passed. It was in like new condition with orignal sheath and all. I'm just not that serious a collector. Kinfolk, Case, and Western also made them during WWII. Whether you call them Bowies or machetes, they were thin and used as machetes mostly. Maybe some Japanese soldier got stuck with one, but I'd hate to go up against somebody with a Samurai sword if all I had was a 9" blade.
Here is a picture of the #18 Bowie.
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I've had an idea for a North-East-specific breed of machete for a while. All the designs out there so far are primarily focused on the Southern regions.
I was thinking of a really short blade, 3-5", but super thick, half inch at least.
But it would have to have a really wide blade to get to a decent edge angle, 6 or 7" from the sharpened edge to the back of the blade.
Then a really long handle.
You could even make it so the handle is replaceable somehow.
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I was thinking of a really short blade, 3-5", but super thick, half inch at least.
But it would have to have a really wide blade to get to a decent edge angle, 6 or 7" from the sharpened edge to the back of the blade.
Then a really long handle.
You could even make it so the handle is replaceable somehow.
Seriously though. The biggest mistake people make when they think of the north is that it's ONLY trees that you're cutting, and that they're ONLY big ones. There are a metric crap ton of scrub trees, brambles, and woody-stemmed plants that a machete does one hell of a number on. Can't take those puppies out with an axe. 
. Here is one I use always, the pic is from when it was newer, but I use it all the time, and it is about 3 years old now. It was an 18" one that I cut down to about 15", I think. I haven't measured it, just took off a bunch.
And here it is brand new, right after I cut it down:
I have gone through stuff 6" thick or better, in the warm, in the cold, etc. I don't think there is a faster, lighter, more multi-use tool for building a shelter and staying warm. That one does have a flaw, and that is due to it's thinness. When batonning, it doesn't pry the wood apart well. The same wood though, wouldn't necessarily go with a splitting maul either, so I don't really count that. On dry hard wood that is very big, it doesn't work well, but then...neither would a hatchet of the same weight. So, it does have limitations, but all tools do, and you are OK as long as you work within them.
Here is the last one I had that I broke, along with my newer one before i cut it down.
That other one was MUCH harder, and you knew when you filed the edge on it. I wore out a brand new file on it, and it wanted to skate across it. It also had a very shallow edge angle. That one I broke chopping into a spruce crotch like everyone tells you not to do. I am glad it broke though, as it taught me a lot about the thin, hard edges, and I have not tried to duplicate that one again. The shape of it was amazing though, and it cut like a laser even if you had very little swing.
I think, that unless you are cutting a lot of BIG hardwood, the machete will do more than any axe or hatchet. It is more multi-use, has more reach, packs flatter, lighter, and is easier to use on a larger variety of sizes. I don't keep track of the temps I have used those in, but I know that they have gotten into the teens, and there is a really good chance they were below 0*F.
And here it is brand new, right after I cut it down:
I have gone through stuff 6" thick or better, in the warm, in the cold, etc. I don't think there is a faster, lighter, more multi-use tool for building a shelter and staying warm. That one does have a flaw, and that is due to it's thinness. When batonning, it doesn't pry the wood apart well. The same wood though, wouldn't necessarily go with a splitting maul either, so I don't really count that. On dry hard wood that is very big, it doesn't work well, but then...neither would a hatchet of the same weight. So, it does have limitations, but all tools do, and you are OK as long as you work within them.
Here is the last one I had that I broke, along with my newer one before i cut it down.
That other one was MUCH harder, and you knew when you filed the edge on it. I wore out a brand new file on it, and it wanted to skate across it. It also had a very shallow edge angle. That one I broke chopping into a spruce crotch like everyone tells you not to do. I am glad it broke though, as it taught me a lot about the thin, hard edges, and I have not tried to duplicate that one again. The shape of it was amazing though, and it cut like a laser even if you had very little swing.
I think, that unless you are cutting a lot of BIG hardwood, the machete will do more than any axe or hatchet. It is more multi-use, has more reach, packs flatter, lighter, and is easier to use on a larger variety of sizes. I don't keep track of the temps I have used those in, but I know that they have gotten into the teens, and there is a really good chance they were below 0*F.
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For fun, you can check out this video I did a while ago. I use that machete on a big dead spruce. The intro is kind of long, but the chopping starts at about 1:45, and the end shows the cut compared to other tools. You can see the notch the machete made at about 6:40. Just for the record, you really shouldn't need to cut stuff this big. Unless you were trying to keep a big fire going all night, you should be able to save a lot of energy by keeping stuff under 4" or so, and a shelter could be made with things smaller than that. Also, if you are cutting stuff this big, it would be a bear to split in a decent amount of time.
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