I think that the focus of the x-rays are to see if what kevin states are marks indicating bad blades, are on all of Mad Dog knives or Mike actually did get a "bad apple". It seems to me that this has nothing to do with the outcome of the tests, it has more to do with can we believe what Mad dog is telling us about why the knife in question didn't perform as well as he thinks it should have. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
-
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Mad Dog Update 2: Forget your Xrays folks...
- Thread starter Spark
- Start date
This whole thread is getting rather rediculous.
I'm getting quite tired of the HYPE and BS Marketing surrounding many makers knives.
What is beyond me is that if other makers, even if they don't like the results, can accept the tests done by BladeForums, and make changes accordingly why can't Mad Dog do the same.
If these makers want to claim the best/toughest/meanest/bla bla bla knife, then their product should out perform others regardless of what the test is, who performs it, etc. Biased testing - give me a break!
The fact that the Mad Dog knife was purchased from a dealer is more than ample proof of product. If Mad Dog can't provide good quality control then that's his problem, and the buying public should know, period.
Mad Dog Knives has handled this poorly from the start. At this point (after reading most of the posts on both forums), I find that Mike et al is correct in this matter and if Kevin M. doesn't like it, too bad.
This doesn't deminish the fact that Mad Dog makes some good products - no doubt he does - what it does tell me though, is that he has some QC issues that need addressing - if not an ego/attitude adjustment... as I don't recall any other makers acting in this fashion.
- Darren
I'm getting quite tired of the HYPE and BS Marketing surrounding many makers knives.
What is beyond me is that if other makers, even if they don't like the results, can accept the tests done by BladeForums, and make changes accordingly why can't Mad Dog do the same.
If these makers want to claim the best/toughest/meanest/bla bla bla knife, then their product should out perform others regardless of what the test is, who performs it, etc. Biased testing - give me a break!
The fact that the Mad Dog knife was purchased from a dealer is more than ample proof of product. If Mad Dog can't provide good quality control then that's his problem, and the buying public should know, period.
Mad Dog Knives has handled this poorly from the start. At this point (after reading most of the posts on both forums), I find that Mike et al is correct in this matter and if Kevin M. doesn't like it, too bad.
This doesn't deminish the fact that Mad Dog makes some good products - no doubt he does - what it does tell me though, is that he has some QC issues that need addressing - if not an ego/attitude adjustment... as I don't recall any other makers acting in this fashion.
- Darren
huhuhuhuh!
TOOK ten min to chop through the 2x4 (cause I cut through crooked)
held 2x and started wacking on edge using the belly of my MAKO (6in drop point hunting knife), fliped it over when i got half way through2x forming 2in v notch, started wacking again a little off target (hey I was playing w/ my bow and my arms are tired)
bord fell apart, knife scrapes hair off my arm. It was not hair poping sharp before test. is the edge too hard for chopping, IMO NO!!! A 7 in ATAK should have done a better job than my 6in MAKO. Like I said before I chopped bone w/ this knife and NO chipping.
ARMLOK
TOOK ten min to chop through the 2x4 (cause I cut through crooked)
ARMLOK
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This is beginning to get pretty complicated! Like everyone else, I thought the ntoches were full thickness and would easily be seen on a simple lateral view of the knife. After Spark posted these pictures, though, I highly doubt that the human eye could pick up on a density difference between the ground area and the full thickness tang. Angling the tube and shooting at an angle would be the way to do it, I think. That also assumes you would have the tube angled at the right number of degrees, so the notches would have to be fairly uniform in nature. It seems to me that the only way you could pick up on a density difference between the ground part and the full thickness tang would be by using a densitometer, which is an instrument used to quantify density changes on a radiograph. I am not pleased with the consistency most densitometers offer, though, and I think that there would be too much random variation as a result to draw any conclusions.
I agree with whoever said that the notches look pretty darn nice for a reject pile knife, though!
I gotta tell you that I am neither a Busse owner or Mad Dog owner, but as an impartial 3rd party observer to this whole thing, as well as how MD has conducted himself in MANY other exchanges, I must say that this whole thing seems a little fishy. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
I also don't have 25 years of experience looking at radiographs of human tissues, although I am a couple years into it myself. I really don't know much about shooting films of full thickness metal objects, either, but I really doubt, based on what I know about radiology, that a lateral film shot of a Mad Dog knife, regardless of technique, would result in a noticeable density change from the notch to the full thickness tang. Can anyone explain how this could be seen with such a film?
------------------
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I agree with whoever said that the notches look pretty darn nice for a reject pile knife, though!
I gotta tell you that I am neither a Busse owner or Mad Dog owner, but as an impartial 3rd party observer to this whole thing, as well as how MD has conducted himself in MANY other exchanges, I must say that this whole thing seems a little fishy. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
I also don't have 25 years of experience looking at radiographs of human tissues, although I am a couple years into it myself. I really don't know much about shooting films of full thickness metal objects, either, but I really doubt, based on what I know about radiology, that a lateral film shot of a Mad Dog knife, regardless of technique, would result in a noticeable density change from the notch to the full thickness tang. Can anyone explain how this could be seen with such a film?
------------------
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Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
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Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
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Today I had a conference call with Mike and Spark. We discussed the issue of the radiographs (x-rays, sorry, falling into doctorspeak). Here is what we decided.
The x-rays were not optimized to show subtleties in the metal. Thus, it is possible, although VERY unlikely, that some findings were obscured. Such as notches.
To absolutely rule in or out the presence of the notches, I am going to take two knives and do oblique x-rays of the tangs. The beam will be angled at 30 degrees relative to the long axis of the knife. For those of you who, like me, have trouble visualizing things, we are laying the knife flat, so it would be oriented like the 3 and 9 on a clock, then shooting a beam first from the 4 to 10 position, thus being tangential to the surface of the tang on top, then shooting a beam from 2 to 8, thus being tangential to the bottom surface of the tang (by 30 degrees).
If no notches are revealed, Mike and Spark have agreed that this will satisfy their concerns about the presence of the notches on MD knives being a normal finding.
If notches are found, then I have screwed the pooch, but good. I will then x-ray all dozen of the MD's I have, and report my findings. Hoping, at best, for the pick (of the pooch'es) litter.
Should no notches be found, then I will send my ATAK2 to Mike, so that the test will be repeated with a genuine MD knife. He, of course, will have no reason to remove the handle, so I have a good chance of getting my knife back in one piece, a decided benefit over our previous arrangement, in which I agreed to let him remove the handle.
Frankly, I expect little difference in the results of the tests. The ATAK is neither designed nor balanced as a chopper, but is intended to be a balanced fighting knife.
However, the test will have been performed as it was intended. This is, and has been, my sole interest in this matter.
I am not subsidizing Mad Dog by doing this, no more than I am subsidizing Kit Carson by sending a knife of his for Mike to test. I am just trying to have the test be performed with the knives that were intended to be tested.
I expect to have the x-rays completed by mid next week, and will post my results, and send the x-rays with the knives, to Mike for testing, assuming negative findings on the x-rays.
Hoping that this will contribute to peace and tranquility, I remain, Yours truly, Walt
The x-rays were not optimized to show subtleties in the metal. Thus, it is possible, although VERY unlikely, that some findings were obscured. Such as notches.
To absolutely rule in or out the presence of the notches, I am going to take two knives and do oblique x-rays of the tangs. The beam will be angled at 30 degrees relative to the long axis of the knife. For those of you who, like me, have trouble visualizing things, we are laying the knife flat, so it would be oriented like the 3 and 9 on a clock, then shooting a beam first from the 4 to 10 position, thus being tangential to the surface of the tang on top, then shooting a beam from 2 to 8, thus being tangential to the bottom surface of the tang (by 30 degrees).
If no notches are revealed, Mike and Spark have agreed that this will satisfy their concerns about the presence of the notches on MD knives being a normal finding.
If notches are found, then I have screwed the pooch, but good. I will then x-ray all dozen of the MD's I have, and report my findings. Hoping, at best, for the pick (of the pooch'es) litter.
Should no notches be found, then I will send my ATAK2 to Mike, so that the test will be repeated with a genuine MD knife. He, of course, will have no reason to remove the handle, so I have a good chance of getting my knife back in one piece, a decided benefit over our previous arrangement, in which I agreed to let him remove the handle.
Frankly, I expect little difference in the results of the tests. The ATAK is neither designed nor balanced as a chopper, but is intended to be a balanced fighting knife.
However, the test will have been performed as it was intended. This is, and has been, my sole interest in this matter.
I am not subsidizing Mad Dog by doing this, no more than I am subsidizing Kit Carson by sending a knife of his for Mike to test. I am just trying to have the test be performed with the knives that were intended to be tested.
I expect to have the x-rays completed by mid next week, and will post my results, and send the x-rays with the knives, to Mike for testing, assuming negative findings on the x-rays.
Hoping that this will contribute to peace and tranquility, I remain, Yours truly, Walt
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OK, if Walt is willing to admit that it is possible that he may have been in error, then I must also admit that he may have been in error.
But lighten up everybody. No need for anybody to take this any more seriously than I am. My suggestion from the start was to forget about the X-rays, stipulate that the ATAK was fine, and just go on with life.
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 05 November 1999).]
But lighten up everybody. No need for anybody to take this any more seriously than I am. My suggestion from the start was to forget about the X-rays, stipulate that the ATAK was fine, and just go on with life.
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 05 November 1999).]
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Walt,
Thanks for being willing to X-Ray your Dog again. Doing the same thing for the same reason can be irritating.
Spark,
I don't know where Walt lives in relation to you and Mike but would it be possible to send the ATAK in the pictures to Walt? This is a Mad Dog with known notches in the tang. I would be interested to know how it looks on X-Ray. It could be used as a control piece.
------------------
"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb
[This message has been edited by David Williams (edited 05 November 1999).]
Thanks for being willing to X-Ray your Dog again. Doing the same thing for the same reason can be irritating.
Spark,
I don't know where Walt lives in relation to you and Mike but would it be possible to send the ATAK in the pictures to Walt? This is a Mad Dog with known notches in the tang. I would be interested to know how it looks on X-Ray. It could be used as a control piece.
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"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb
[This message has been edited by David Williams (edited 05 November 1999).]
Have been following the various threads concerning the MD test that was conducted by Bladeforums via Mike. Have to admit that the whole situation is hilarious! Nothing like adults acting like kids on the play ground shouting the dozens at each other.
Must admit though, I would love to hammer off the handles of my three ATAKs (thought the handles weren't supposed to come off?) if I didn't have nearly seven hundred dollars tied up in them. I am sure people are wondering if I bought them from mysterious dealers. Nope, just from different sources, who were gracious enough to cut me a deal to someone on active duty. Again, the whole issue should come down to voting with your wallet. What I wouldn't give to know if I have "notched" ATAKs...
To Kevin's credit, he may be totally correct that someone in his shop was pushing out blades that were designated for destruction. Amazing things happen every day, I having been witness to more than a few, and I don't think we should condemn without proof. On the flip side, MD Dog knives owes their customers an explanation, backed up with proof. If a few more ATAKs turn up with notches, well, the situaiton needs no more explanation from me.
Kevin McClung can rest safe that there aren't many people who have enough money to multilate their ATAKs to the point where he would not repair or replace them just to test if they have a notch. It seems to me that for all the thousands of ATAKs that he has sold that he could ship out one more to test, if he truly belives that the test was conducted with a sub standard ATAK. If not, he should be man enough not to even pay attention to tests conducted on his knives.
There is so much RUMINT (rumor intelligence) floating around about MD failures, no one really knows what is going on. I personally have never had a failure of any nature other than some edge chipping when sharpening with a coarse DMT stone, and I've done some pretty serious chopping with my ATAKs. Hope more real info comes to light.
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"Women bring life into the world
and much death, for they sway the
destinies of men." -Anneas
Must admit though, I would love to hammer off the handles of my three ATAKs (thought the handles weren't supposed to come off?) if I didn't have nearly seven hundred dollars tied up in them. I am sure people are wondering if I bought them from mysterious dealers. Nope, just from different sources, who were gracious enough to cut me a deal to someone on active duty. Again, the whole issue should come down to voting with your wallet. What I wouldn't give to know if I have "notched" ATAKs...
To Kevin's credit, he may be totally correct that someone in his shop was pushing out blades that were designated for destruction. Amazing things happen every day, I having been witness to more than a few, and I don't think we should condemn without proof. On the flip side, MD Dog knives owes their customers an explanation, backed up with proof. If a few more ATAKs turn up with notches, well, the situaiton needs no more explanation from me.
Kevin McClung can rest safe that there aren't many people who have enough money to multilate their ATAKs to the point where he would not repair or replace them just to test if they have a notch. It seems to me that for all the thousands of ATAKs that he has sold that he could ship out one more to test, if he truly belives that the test was conducted with a sub standard ATAK. If not, he should be man enough not to even pay attention to tests conducted on his knives.
There is so much RUMINT (rumor intelligence) floating around about MD failures, no one really knows what is going on. I personally have never had a failure of any nature other than some edge chipping when sharpening with a coarse DMT stone, and I've done some pretty serious chopping with my ATAKs. Hope more real info comes to light.
------------------
"Women bring life into the world
and much death, for they sway the
destinies of men." -Anneas
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X-rays, X-rays, X-rays...Is anybody going to check the hardness of that ATAK with a file or not? I know that's kinda' low-tech, but it works.
There's kind of a conundrum presented by the test results though, if the edge was so hard that it chipped during the chopping tests, it seems like it should have done well in the edge holding test. You didn't do the edge holding part of the test on the section of the edge that was chipped, did you Mike?
There's kind of a conundrum presented by the test results though, if the edge was so hard that it chipped during the chopping tests, it seems like it should have done well in the edge holding test. You didn't do the edge holding part of the test on the section of the edge that was chipped, did you Mike?
There may be a problem with the whole x-ray idea. I really wonder if even with the angles if you will penetrate the steel well enough to see the notches which will have a very subtle difference in density. I can say this since I am a Radiologist and have xrayed other knives here at the hospital. If you don't see the notches I am not convinced that you have proved anything. Steel is much different than bone! Maybe we need to just take a few of these things apart. The old autopsy approach.
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The real test is as follows....
The MadDog warranty test.
Please send the knife back to him and test his UNCONDITIONAL - NO QUESTIONS ASKED - PERIOD warranty.
You should be getting a knife back with a brand new handle!
Rick
The MadDog warranty test.
Please send the knife back to him and test his UNCONDITIONAL - NO QUESTIONS ASKED - PERIOD warranty.
You should be getting a knife back with a brand new handle!
Rick
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Steve,
As stated earlier I did each test on a virgin edge. So, no I did not do the edge holding test on the chiped edge. That would be plain stupid
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
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As stated earlier I did each test on a virgin edge. So, no I did not do the edge holding test on the chiped edge. That would be plain stupid
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
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Coyote; the oblique views do not depend on penetrating the metal of the knife. The views selected will throw the notches (if present) into profile , and they will be visible because they do NOT absorb the xrays, since the metal is absent in the notches, and the rest of the tang DOES.
Walt
Walt
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Coyote
You hit the nail on the head!!! This afternoon
I used Walt's settings for kv, ma, and time.
Used a feeler gauge to find the thickness that his settings would not penetrate. It appears that at about 50 thousands 0.050 there is virtually no penetration. This means simply that if there is only .050 or greater metal out of the .250 thickness of the blade, the knotch would appear not to be there. Point of fact, a scalpel handle with prominate finger groves on both sides appears to be smooth using Walt's settings. To say that because the grooves didn't show on x-ray, they weren't there is preposterous.
The banket statement that there is no knotch is possibly wrong and certainly misleading.
Spark and Mike, please do not be intimidated by credentials, or being called amature.
Facts are in every ones pervue.
Frankly I don't care one way or the other whether about the knotches, don't own a MD, or a Busse either.
I would like to see you have the freedom to present the facts.
Keep on trucking.
Jim
You hit the nail on the head!!! This afternoon
I used Walt's settings for kv, ma, and time.
Used a feeler gauge to find the thickness that his settings would not penetrate. It appears that at about 50 thousands 0.050 there is virtually no penetration. This means simply that if there is only .050 or greater metal out of the .250 thickness of the blade, the knotch would appear not to be there. Point of fact, a scalpel handle with prominate finger groves on both sides appears to be smooth using Walt's settings. To say that because the grooves didn't show on x-ray, they weren't there is preposterous.
The banket statement that there is no knotch is possibly wrong and certainly misleading.
Spark and Mike, please do not be intimidated by credentials, or being called amature.
Facts are in every ones pervue.
Frankly I don't care one way or the other whether about the knotches, don't own a MD, or a Busse either.
I would like to see you have the freedom to present the facts.
Keep on trucking.
Jim
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Deliberately destroying a knife and then asking Kevin to replace it doesn't seem reasonable to me. Hard use is another matter. I don't think Mike's cutting and chopping tests were abusive; chipping on spruce chopping is a problem unless the Dog in question is a mongrel pound puppy.
Steve, rather than the file test Mike is having a whole series of Rockwell tests done by a University. THAT will tell the tale.
Jim
Steve, rather than the file test Mike is having a whole series of Rockwell tests done by a University. THAT will tell the tale.
Jim
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Actually Jim,
Lori came up with a great idea and a way out for Mclung! Look at the thread with the message from the actually owner!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
Lori came up with a great idea and a way out for Mclung! Look at the thread with the message from the actually owner!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
- Joined
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Gonesailing; I was basing my opinion on the fact that on the initial lateral x-ray, I could see about 1/4" from the edge of the ATAK2 up into the blade, before it became uniformly white.
Obviously, you have more experience and better access to x-ray equipment than I do.
It seems to me that you (or coyote) are the obvious person(s) to perform the definitive x-rays on the knives. Just send me your snail mail addy, and I will send the knives out Monday. You can, after x-raying them, forward the ATAK2 on to Mike Turber, and return the Shrike to me, and post your findings.
Coyote; if you would like to perform your own x-rays, just let Gonesailing know.
I await your reply. Walt
Obviously, you have more experience and better access to x-ray equipment than I do.
It seems to me that you (or coyote) are the obvious person(s) to perform the definitive x-rays on the knives. Just send me your snail mail addy, and I will send the knives out Monday. You can, after x-raying them, forward the ATAK2 on to Mike Turber, and return the Shrike to me, and post your findings.
Coyote; if you would like to perform your own x-rays, just let Gonesailing know.
I await your reply. Walt
- Joined
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Walt
Thank you for your sincere interest in persuing this matter. I will attempt to show the tang from all angles up to the machine and my technicians ability. (reminds me, I need to add to their job description
)
Will post my findings here, forward the rads to you and or coyote. If I can find someone here locally that can digitally post the rads, I will do so.
I don't give a rat's a$$ if there is a notch or not. With all the hyperbole, it will be fun to find out.
Only problem I see is if there is a notch or mark, my motives, methods and so forth may be attacked. O well. This is not rocket science, and may not change any minds. But facts are facts, the conclusions are up to the imndividual.
I have e-mailed mike to see if the origional knife can be sent to get the settings and angles to best show any notch or groove. This will help but may not be necessary. I will do it anyway.
Have you made previous arrangements with Mike regarding forwarding on your atack2?
Jim
Thank you for your sincere interest in persuing this matter. I will attempt to show the tang from all angles up to the machine and my technicians ability. (reminds me, I need to add to their job description
Will post my findings here, forward the rads to you and or coyote. If I can find someone here locally that can digitally post the rads, I will do so.
I don't give a rat's a$$ if there is a notch or not. With all the hyperbole, it will be fun to find out.
Only problem I see is if there is a notch or mark, my motives, methods and so forth may be attacked. O well. This is not rocket science, and may not change any minds. But facts are facts, the conclusions are up to the imndividual.
I have e-mailed mike to see if the origional knife can be sent to get the settings and angles to best show any notch or groove. This will help but may not be necessary. I will do it anyway.
Have you made previous arrangements with Mike regarding forwarding on your atack2?
Jim