MAD DOG Update #4?

So, should we all just forget about the other tests, which have shown Maddog's knives to be among the best, if not the best?
What about the tests that Hilton performed? What about the article in SWAT magazine, in which an A.T.A.K. was used to cut open the roof of a car, and actually beat the jaws of life?
The tests performed by Mr. Turber are only one of many tests that Maddog knives have gone through. They are no more valuable than any other test, as I see it. So, why the big fuss?

Marco
 
Oh, let's be fair about the wife thing. Maybe Mad Dog is a bit loopy -- wait, scratch that "maybe" -- and his wife steps in as the Voice of Reason. This doesn't amount to Mad Dog <EM>hiding</EM> behind <EM>anyone</EM>.
 
Marco, I think the big deal is that this is one of the few tests where Mad Dog didn't do well, and as a result we get these allegations that the knife is a fake or stolen or both.

I read about the Mad Dog / Jaw's of Life test and was impressed until I remembered that mere digging was considered abuse, so I'd hate to think what chopping through a car roof would do to the warranty.

Anyhow, people keep missing the point of this current mess: It's not how well the ATAK performed on the test, it's the statements made afterwards that are so mind boggling.

The knife performed well overall and experienced some chipping. Big suprise there, anyone suprised that an O1 blade at 62 RC chipped a bit? It didn't do well in the chopping, but since it's a fighting knife (and apparrently not of the current configuration, which is suppossedly a better chopper), that's to be expected.

Yet it's when we cut the handle off and show a picture of the tang that this whole mess starts. That's where the fun begins.

You have to remember, we didn't know anything about the history of Mad Dog knives when we did the testing. I had no clue this knife could be anywhere from 3-9 years old. I certainly didn't know that suppossed "reject" marks were hidden under the handle(?!?). If we hadn't chopped the handle off, none of this would have come to light.

Believe what you want to, but we didn't make this mess. We're just reporting the facts here and trying to do the right thing to the point where we're going to repeat the tests.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Hey Jackyl, Mike and Spark can thank you for taking this discussion to a new low.

I heard you Marco. Discussion of knife performance is off-topic though I'm afraid. The drift is now onto insulting Teryl McClung. The fact that a few people who actually own a Mad Dog have posted saying that their blades don't chip while chopping is irrelevant to what these folks are after.
 
Ok, I'm confused.

What are you after Steve? What is your point?

I see a lot of lip service paid to "I hate magazine ads where every knife does well" So, we did some tests, and reported them like we saw them, and now all we are doing is catching grief for it.

I don't see how we're sinking low at all. After all, we're not the one's trying to use all sorts of excuses for why Mad Dog's knife didn't perform. We did the tests, and lo and behold, Kevin McClung declares that the knife is a fake, stolen, and is unfit for testing.

Then, we see all sorts of people claiming that we rigged the test, that we're out to get Kevin McClung, etc etc etc, all because his knife didn't do well.

Tell me Steve, what exactly do you want? Do you want us to just have tests and reviews that never say anything bad? Do you want us to cheerfully ignore problems? Shall we never have a negative review?

I'm finding this funnier and funnier. All this scrambling and backpedaling and accussations, and meanwhile we're the ones sinking to a new low? Get real.

We have yet to change our story. As new facts have come forward, we've done everything we could to let everyone know. I don't know how much more straight and narrow we could have done this. What, should we have tried to backpedal, deny and hide all this information? Should we have deleted any thread that questioned what we did? Hell no! We're answering every question that's come up, and not hiding anything.

Yet we're sinking to a new low. I guess telling the truth is no longer in fashion...

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Hey Steve and Mad Dog fans... Click below!
www.wavplace.com/ftp/pub/nov/babyc.wav

Sorry had to do it
smile.gif


------------------
 
Perhaps if we give this thing a day or three of quiet meditation and off-forum communication as appropriate before continuing these threads?

Meanwhile, let's observe the advice in Robert's Rules of Order on decorum. Address the chair or the assembly, and not the previous speaker, and argue against the other side's position, not against the person. Slams against the other person's intelligence, maturity, or honesty are unlikely to bring him around to your position.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Believe me, being the one responsible for taking this thread / forum to a new low, didn't realize their was a low to begin with, is the LAST thing I want to do. I'll keep my nose out of all this. Thanks for the constructive criticizm Steve. -AR

------------------
- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.


 
Good words of advice Jim as always.

Much info is being processed behind the scenes. A lot not good and will never make it to the forums via Spark or myself.

The only things that will make it to the forums are the facts concerning Mad Dog knives.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
Gawd Spark. Are you asking me to restate everything I've said cuz you weren't paying attention?

Go back and read my posts, and notice WHERE they are. I posted nothing but support for the test and Mike until the THIRD PAGE of Mad Dog bashing in the thread Update on 7" Knife Test Concerning Mad Dog.

Nobody has called Mike a liar that anyone but Mike has seen. Only one person has politely pointed out the appearance of possible bias. There have been hundreds of posts in six or seven threads, almost all of which take a shot at Mad Dog, all because of a thread Mike started, where he eventually said Mad Dog called him a liar, not in public but in private to a third party, but he posts no evidence of it. Mike then bemoans this as a great injustice to his honor. Assuming it is true, nobody but Mike, Mad Dog, and one other person would even know about it if Mike hadn't brought it up.

You continue to talk like every Mad Dog has an edge like glass and a handle ready to fall off while Mike talks about differential heat treating like it is an absurd thing to do to a knife, so someone who doesn't buy that should just be quiet about it and let unsuspecting folks swallow those cat turds with a glass of milk?

Ho ho, my gawd.
 
Steve, you aren't being consistant.

First off, you are incorrect. Mad Dog called Mike a liar, etc while emailing Jim March and Tim Lau. Jim asked if he could show Mike the email Mad Dog sent him, Mad Dog said he didn't care. That right there refutes your argument about nobody seeing this but Mike. If I were a betting man, I'd make you a wager that these aren't the only people he told, but I don't want to take your money unfairly. That argument doesn't hold any water, Steve.

So, who started this? Mike, or Mad Dog?

Mike just reported what he found on the tests. Mad Dog was the one who made the claims that the knife was a fake. Mike relayed that information. Who do you think started the controversy? What would you have done? Sat on these allegations that the Mad Dog was a fake, stolen, (insert excuse here)? Sorry, since our interest was to provide a fair and honest test, we couldn't do that. And last time I checked, the allegations made the controversy, not the tests.

Place the blame where it belongs, Steve. If you are upset that Mad Dog is taking heat, tell him to stop making outrageous claims and calling people liars. Don't blame us for doing the right thing here by making public these concerns. Furthermore, don't expect us to back down when he makes those claims and we can refute them.

You want to be a party to deliberate misinformation, lies and all the rest, be my guest. But I'm not going to stand by and allow it to remain unchallenged especially when we are the target.

As for my concerns - I wholeheartedly believe that while Mad Dog knives are very good indeed, they do have a few design flaws, mainly in the tang / handle area. The fact that handle failures were reported at least as early as 1994 in Fighting Knives Magazines, yet there have been no significant changes to prevent this leads me to believe that he is either apathetic or deliberately unconcerned with this. It's been shown that the hard chrome, while being a great abrasion protectant, is lousy as a rust preventative due to the capillary action. No amount of spin can disprove that. Science and real life experience has shown it to be so.

The lack of a good mechanical lockup / backup is Mad Dog's business. But the failures have happened, and can happen. Denials and counter accusations don't erase the problem. Deleting any mention of them doesn't erase them from history.

As for the edge hardness, it's been repeatedly shown that 62RC for O1 can and will lead to blades chipping out. Ask any bladesmith. The severity of the chips is variable dependant on the hardness of the edge, material being chopped, and other factors such as user maintenance. Again, this isn't rocket science or magic hocus pocus, it's been proven over and over for years. Chipping, unlike rusting under the chrome, can be fixed by the user by resharpening.

So, Steve, no offense, but let's take a step back and look at this with some common sense. I'll paint you a picture.

We have a maker who says his knives are the cat's ass. He makes all sorts of claims like there's never been any failures, only 6 warranty returns ever, uses super secret proprietary whiz bang materials, and that's without going into his own personal background (which is another matter that we won't go into here). He makes all these claims, and is not hesitant to insult, berate, belittle etc, anyone who he disagrees with.

Yet, when it comes out that his products may not actually be "all that" what happens? It's a conspiracy. Everyone is out to get him. The knife was stolen, or a reject, or a shop knife. The handle failures never happened. There's never been warranty repairs. There's never been a failure. Chipping is unheard of. Etc, it goes on and on.

No offense, but this seems like a pretty clear case of being able to dish it out, but not being able to take it. The only difference is who is willing to feed on the "turds" that you mention.

So, you can feel free to have your fill of the BS, but don't expect me to compromise my own integrity when I've got facts backing me up. The longer this issue is under scrutiny, the more information comes out, and boy howdy, there's a lot of BS being floated around....

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 08 November 1999).]
 
Spark, I find it impossible to have a rational argument with you. Your interpretations of my own statements, and the system of analysis that you employ in the place of logic, are utterly incomprehensible to me.

Who started the thread that brought all this to our attention Spark? At the start, Mike's post was reasonable, but the two of you have let the Mad Dog bashing go on to a point that is not reasonable, and you have gone on to become unreasonable yourselves in my opinion.

Tell Mad Dog to stop what? I see you and Mike and a few dozen others posting page after page of jabs at Mad Dog, but I don't see Mad Dog doing anything. That is a perfect example of the puzzling system of analysis I spoke of.

What misinformation and lies am I a party too? I have made no judgement at all about the test ATAK, only disagreed with your insistence on speaking of one of the best hard use knives made as though it were a piece of junk.

"Yet, when it comes out that his products may not actually be "all that" what happens? It's a conspiracy. Everyone is out to get him. The knife was stolen, or a reject, or a shop knife. The handle failures never happened. There's never been warranty repairs. There's never been a failure. Chipping is unheard of. Etc, it goes on and on."

You utterly made that up, Spark. I never said any of those things. In fact, any time anybody has suggested that there was malicious intent on Mike's part, I have stood up for him. I have only objected to your insinuating that every Mad Dog handle is in danger of rusting off, and every Mad Dog edge will chip if used for chopping. That is misinformation.

Are you calling me a wimp Spark? Are you daring me to respond with some similar ignorance? I guess by your standard of integrity, I should now respond with some petty insult to your character to prove...what exactly?

The fact is, you are raving in your efforts to discredit a great knife, completely aside from Mike's test, and it ain't floating with some people who own them. In fact, you are so relentless, that even I am starting to wonder about your motivations.
 
Whoa......fellas, please.
Everyone seems intent on painting themselves into corners.
Lots of emotional interpreting of other peoples' intent and meaning.
These forums are not an ideal place to settle these kinds of differences....everything comes out in black and white....no allowances for the greys.
And ,in this case, there appear to be lots of greys.
I know...I have been involved in a couple of these "corner painting" exchanges.
How about a break while the proponents review what they MEANT to say....or SHOULD have said. No need to back down...just think about facts instead of beliefs and egos.

------------------
BrianWE
ICQ #21525343

 
Spark, I find it impossible to have a rational argument with you. Your interpretations of my own statements, and the system of analysis that you employ in the place of logic, are utterly incomprehensible to me.
Click to expand...

Well, I'll agree with you there. I find it hard to argue with someone when I'm providing facts, and all you do is provide diatribe. Either point to some examples, or stop with the charade.

Steve, no offense there bud, but you seem to be fulfilling your own Mad Dog Fanatic prediction. No matter how many facts are handed to you, you refuse to believe anything but what's fed to you.

That's fine, it's your choice. But don't expect anyone else to believe it.

The only ranting and raving that's being done here is by those claiming martyrdom for their poor, unjustly persecuted icon.

You want to twist words, we can play that, but I'd rather not. I can (and have) named names to back up my claims. I've repeatedly provided facts. All you do is twist words and make bogus accusations.

Steve, no offense, but you are wrong, just like with the Xray's.

Chipped Mad Dog's have been previously reported by many people. 2 off the top of my head are Aubrey and Cliff.

Warranty repairs have been experience by far more than 6 people, no matter what MD says. Too bad all the posts were deleted, I'd point to them as well. But, off the top of my head, I'll name Cliff, ChrisJohn, and I'm sure there's more than a few more.

Handle failures have been reported by Rick Schultz (direct witness), Greg Walker (indirect, we're checking on his sources), and a Lt. Murphy who suppossedly witnessed 12 knives failing in 3 weeks (we're checking on that as well). I apologize that we don't have that report in hand, but since HI is pretty far away from FL, I can't exactly drive over there to help dig up that information.

What I find really incredulous is your claims that Mad Dog is completely without blame for what's going on right now. Your memory is astounding. Truly amazing. I'm sure Mike will post the email in the near future, but Steve, you should know better than to tell *me*, the person who ran KnifeForums.com for it's first year, that Mad Dog has never made bogus claims that resulted in some serious backpedalling. You are going to tell *me* that he's never done similar things to this to multiple others? Heck, we can even ignore that. I seem to remember Mike being singled out on his forum, and when he tried to defend himself, his posts were edited, deleted, and he was banned (multiple times). This has *never* happened here, Mad Dog is free to step up to the plate and see if he can take what happens when he dishes out.

The only difference here is that we actually don't have to play on his playground. As such, he can't edit and delete these posts and cover everything up.

Am I calling you a wimp? No
Are you daring me to respond with some similar ignorance? No, you don't need my help with that.

Am I insinuating that the handles will fall off every knife? Hell no! Point me to where I say that.
Has it happened though? Yes!
Will every edge chip? Again, no. Again, point me to where I said that.
Has it happened? Yes!

Is the possibility for all this and more present? Of course and since it has happened, there's no use denying it.

No amount of vitriol and raving will change what's happened, Steve. So, respectfully, take a step back, take a few deep breaths, calm yourself down, and clearly state your concerns so that we can discuss this rationally.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 08 November 1999).]
 
Steve Steve Steve, I think you've missed the whole point of what people have been trying to say to you. So here it is...
That is why I called Steve to the plate. Complaints are made without substance.
Look at my posts. I always point to evidence.
All I ask is that in all fairness the same be done in kind.
Click to expand...

The only thing they want to see is some evidence to back up some of your claims. Which I have yet to see you do. I don't think it would bother anyone if you were to link us to another thread or At Least quoted something legit.

Also, what really kills me is that everything we heard from Mad Dog is second hand. Is it so impossible hard to actually participate in an argument that directly involves your products and integrity?

Sincerely,
Adam
 
Steve,

I will try to remain cival as best I can.

You continue to bring up stuff but you point to nothing. Can you please show where spark and/or myself said that Mad Dog makes "a piece of junk". Please Steve back up what you are saying and PLEASE show me proof of what you are arguing about.

If you can not show proof that Spark or I have said Mad Dog "makes a piece of junk" then SHUT UP!

Sorry Steve but you are trying my patience and it is very irritating to have you continue to fight this one man battle with absolutely no information backing up your claims and/or stories.

You will notice that each time I say something that is controversial I back it up with either facts or I point to the evidense.

You however sir do neither. You in fact twist Sparks and my words into your own attack on us.

I respectfully ask you to stop it at once as it is not helping your case and it only makes you look bad.

Now for any future post you make you now have the obligation to point directly to your supporting evidence.

You have questioned the validity of the emails I have. Here it is and yes I edited it because it mentions several names of supposed thieves.

Kevin McClung wrote:


Tim and Jim,
I read your posts on the "testing" accomplished by Turber.
I also read Turber's account of the tests that he performed.


FYI
1) I thought that all of the knives were supposed to be new...
The ATAK knife that Turber tested is a model that I haven't even shipped in
three years. It is one of the partially machine made knives that I
discontinued in early 1996. The blade is less than 7" long, and it has the
old style machine plunge on the grind.


So, his published specs are wrong. He obviously never measured or
weighed the knife. So much for his methods of observation.


2) If it is the same one that he ground the 1/2 of the handle off of,
then he bought a knife that was "lunchboxed" by one of my thieving
former employees. I can not prove who it was, but at least one of them had
to be the guy that was doing the handle bonding and rough grinding then. He
was undoubtedly working in concert with the fellow that later left and went
into competition with me doing kydex using my patterns. This is the reason
that "Busse's" sheaths look so much like mine.
(I note that Mike made scant reference to that sheath copy issue in his
"review". He is OBVIOUSLY trying to sell Busse hard, and keep the taint
of plagiarism off of him.)


3) How do I know the knife is an illicit Ripoff?
Well, the knife in the cutaway picture has a big notch in the back of
the tang on the end. This is something I do to mark a blade that has FAILED
the heat treat for some reason or other. This notch mark means that the
blade is to be scrapped.


I had suspected that several of these had snuck out the back door
finished, as the numbers for chroming and handles done were sometimes
wrong compared to how many knives I was actually shipping out.
I never had any proof of it until now. Now I know for sure that it
happened, but I can not prove exactly who did it.


Very inconvenient.


They were also swiping holsters, but that's another story.


4) I wonder where Turber got the blade, and how? It is certainly not recent
production, and would have had to have been made when the thieves were still
working here.


It is possible they sold it at a show, or over the net. Turber or his
source may also have purchased it through "*********", a ********
company that the thieves were in league with.


********** has since been caught in the attempt of selling the other
guy's copies of my holsters as Genuine Mad Dog Gungloves, but the
differences in fit, finish and function were apparent enough that they
were caught by a knowledgeable customer. I notified the police in his area
of the attempted fraud. This incident was brought to light on the Forums
some months ago. They are no longer dealers, and have not been since I
discovered their illicit dealings with the thieves in early 1998.


God only knows how many hands the old knife went through before getting
to Turber.


5) Turber would probably be very "em bare assed" to know that he was
using a stolen reject that should never have left my shop for his
testing. It pretty much invalidates everything he did. That is sort of
funny, in a round about way... On the other hand, he may be gleeful in the
knowledge that such things have occurred. He is a hard one to figure out.


I do not really know how to proceed here, and I really don't give a
rat's ass about Turber or his idiotic and biased "testing". It just boils
me to know that there is even ONE illicit reject out there.
Thank God there were never very many rejects, and most all of them can
be accounted for. I generally destroy them within minutes of getting
rejected, but in a large batch, it could be delayed for a day or more.
I was not counting rejects, just rejecting and destroying them.
Suggestions?


Thanks for your support over there on BF.
Keep the Faith,
Mad Dog
Click to expand...
The following are more quotes from Mad Dog's email.
I am not trying to be all things to all people, and those that appreciate
what I do will continue to support my efforts. Those that sell product that
they feel is somehow overshadowed by my reputation will undoubtedly continue
to find ways to try to discredit me. I have come to expect no less from the
likes of Rick Schultz, Mike Turber, Frank Spezzano, and others.
Click to expand...
Given his well known antipathy towards all things Mad Dog, I am just as
happy to let it/him "lie", as it were. Regardless of the respective quality
of the Mad Dog he tests, I still feel that any of Turber's so called "test"
efforts are so jaded by his financial relationship to Busse, Cold Steel and
others that he will never give me a truly fair shake, regardless of what he
may claim.
Click to expand...

The below is a complete lie by Mad Dog himself.
Turber tried to become a Mad Dog dealer some time ago, and was denied.
He came back through a blind with another company, was found out, and
denied again. Both times he was told politely that we did not wish to
sell through a large volume, cut rate operation. We prefer to deal with
small, reputable mom and pop type operations, because we are the same
sort of business. Mike was livid. This set the tone our future
dealings.
Click to expand...

I never tried to become a Mad Dog dealer, EVER. He may have me confused with Mike Gallagher.

Steve,

The more info you request the more I may provide but I truly suggest you halt in your tracks and stop calling me to the table in public.

If you want to rant, do so over there not here.

Geez man my life was even threatened over there and you don't see me freaking out. I even sent the guy an email with my actual addresses and times I will be there.

You can post all you want as long as you back everything you claim we are saying with facts. The only way you can support your argument is to quote us directly and/or point to you eveidence. Until then you are just blowing smoke my friend.




------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Hey go buy something from the BFC Store!
www.bladeforums.com/store
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

 
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