Mad Dog versus Busse

X

xxxx

Joined
Oct 16, 1999
Messages
40
Hello group,

I would first like to comment on the many many helpful postings ! Quite amazing and very friendly, thank you
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Three related questions for you;

Question #1

I have heard allot about the Mad Dog and Busse knife companies. If you had to compare the pro's and con's of their knives against each other what would you find ??

Question # 2

A more specific example;

If you compared the Mad Dog Atak2 to the Busse Steel Heart II, which would you consider better and why !? Sheaths are important too.

Question # 3

What are the differences between the Busse Steel Heart II and the Busse Combat # 5 ?? Other than the price
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Thank you for sharing your experience.

Best regards,

xxxx

 
Greetings, QuadX.
I have not handled a Mad Dog nor a Busse knife.
However, I have studied MD's knives in photographs and corresponded with many MD knife owners.
I cannot compare the steels because the INFI steel remains an unknown to me, and I do not have a clear opinion of the impartiality of the steel reviewers either way.
The O2 which MD uses has a reputation as easy to shape, finish and heat treat, which means a consistent product for the purchaser.
As a slightly complex, low alloy steel, O2 also has a reputation for combined toughness and edge holding.
O2 does not trade off much steel in the form of alloy percentages, and, in the end, you do want steel.

However, the great virtue of MD's knives comes not from the steel but from their ergonomics; not just in the hand/handle interface but in the relationship of point and edge to the wrist.
Again, I have never held a MD knife, but the pictures tell the story.
You can easily intuit how they feel and how the whole knife relates to the hand and wrist.

I do not care for hard chrome finishes, as I think they conceal sub-surface corrosion and offer nothing material in return.
I would not let the chrome discourage me if I had the discretionary money to buy a MD knife.

The Busse designs, on the other hand, do not inspire me.
They might affect you differently, and that should guide you more than my opinion.


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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Mad Dog is a genius at making finely balanced fighters. In the ATAK, he managed to make a utility knife that's got most of that "balanced feel". It won't have QUITE as bulletproof a tip structure as a Steel Heart, but it'll be close.

The Battle Mistress is a wonderful potent heavy utility knife. Mad Dog's try at that type is the TUSK which is...controversial, with frequent comments about the price and a small number about the toughness.

Mad Dog grip ergos are IN MY OPINION better, but then I'm primarily interested in potential fight use. For heavy chopping the Busse "protusion behind the pinkie" has advocates.

In short, for a heavy utility knife I'd buy a Battle Mistress. The Shrike is in the running for "best daggeroid ever made", the Panther is absolute pure combat sex in steel, the ATAK is a fantastic balance of fighter and utility and for almost all purposes I'd pick it over a Steel Heart (note: I own an ATAK variant, I've handled Busses but not put any through any sort of "paces").

If you want a small defensive fixed-blade there's other options besides either. I personally think the Rat Thing has the edge over the Mean Street and is near top-of-class.

Kydex work in both cases are good quality. Mad Dog does a broader range of designs, including the "slip sheaths" that in my view can be altered into whatever weird carry method you're into...my ATAK slip sheath is now a leather-covered horizontal rig. Many people LOVE the "Dundee" rig.

I think Kevin is more creative, with the creativity geared for rabid combat. Jerry is aiming more for "rock solid at all costs". Therefore I don't even consider them "head to head competitors" like everybody seems to think they are: they've got different attitudes and directions, and we're all better off with both around.

One detail: Kevin got shocked once while using a knife on wires...or at least, that's what MUST have happened. Because all Mad Dog grips are electrically isolated from the blade...in certain environments, that could be crucial.

Jim March
 
Ken, Mad Dogs are Starret *01* tool steel
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No sweat, I do things like that all the time.
 
Great post Jim!

I have been playing with both a Busse Basic #7 and a ATAK for the last few weeks. My results from testing will be out soon so look for the post here.

I have already done a bit of testing but I will not leak any secrets. Just a heads up on what is to come. So if you are thinking of getting either and can wait please do so
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Also in the test will be a Cold Steel, a Falkniven, A hand made by Matt Lamey, A Camillus, a Ka-Bar and a Spec Plus. So as you can see I have a full week ahead and I may make the review part of our first issue of the new online mag.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 
xxxx,

What are the differences between the Busse Steel Heart II and the Busse Combat # 5 ??
Click to expand...

A #7 would be closer in size to the Steel Heart II. Anyway, the Basics (#3,#5,#7,#9), are made from a different steel, modified INFI, with a different grip material (rubber as opposed to Micarta) and have slightly different geometries than the regular INFI line. Assuming they are similar to the #7 I have, there is no index finger cutout, no extended tang, and the blade is dropped.

[Busse / MD]

If you had to compare the pro's and con's of their knives against each other what would you find ??
Click to expand...

Speaking of utility only and comparing the MD TUSK and the Busse Battle Mistress :

The MD grip is better in terms of heavy chopping. It is more comfortable and thus allows greater force to be used with no ill effects. The Battle Mistress is more secure because of the butt-hook but takes some getting used to in regards to extended heavy use because of the tendancy of impacts off your pinky finger. This problem has decreased constantly over the last fews weeks though and will probably be gone in a month or two.

Both knives can be used as pseudo hammers. The MD grip is very hard and doesn't seem to be effected by impacts, the BM has an extended tang. In terms of over all grip durability both are very high. I tried to light the grip of my Battle Mistress on fire and could not do it. I had to stop because I didn't want to risk effecting the temper. Both grips are also resistant to cuts / abrasions and function well in low temps (-30 -> -40).

The biggest advantage the MD grip has is that it fully encloses the tang whereas the BM does not. Thus on the BM you have two large contact surfaces that are metallic. The electricity part does not bother me (but it would be nice to have), but the temperature conductivity is rather important. Right now it is about 0 around here, this is about as low as it can go before using the BM bare handed will become too uncomfortable to use even for short periods of time barehanded. I'll probably wrap the handle when that happens, but a fully enclosed handle would be better.

In terms of blade geometry the MD has several advantages. The blade is dropped which improves chopping / slicing ability as well as point penetration in a direct chop and lower wrist strain during high impact work. The choil design on the MD is also nicer as the BM cutout is very uncomfortable during extended use (too sharp). The BM however has a thinner edge and I think a more acute primary grind which does raise its cutting ability.

In terms of steel performance both perform well on soft -> moderately hard materials. They hold their edge well with the Busse having a significant advantage (not critical though), but a big difference in seen in sharpening which is much easier on the Busse.

When the stress levels rise and the blades encounter hard objects or are subjected to prying etc., a very dramatic difference is seen. The MD's will chip out fairly easily and can even suffer gross blade failure. The Busse will indent at most and is a far stronger / tougher blade.

Corrosion resistance seems to be higher on the Busse as well. I have stopped oiling my Battle Mistress (past week), and told my brother to do the same on the Basic I lent him. So far neither has shown any signs of corrosion except for some water stains and I have even left them dirty (tree sap and such) for several days trying to induce rusting.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 19 October 1999).]
 
Excellent post Cliff and well balanced.

One concern about the MD I have ...apart from catastrophic blade failure under heavy torque/stress applications ..... is the tang that is epoxied into the blade.

No secret that we don't have any space program in Africa but the best glue is still a glue. It is the weak spot in an otherwise excellent design.

I like the Busse more because ...... overall I rate the blade tougher....Yeah, Yeah, I know I can do chin up's on the MD but so what ...I want to cut and chop not excercise. Restoration of the Busse edge is easier for me, edge retention on the A2 Busse was as good as the MD and INFI is way above that.

Busse has an unconditional warrantee on his blade.

I can actually see if I have stressed the tang on the Busse as it is visible and full tang. MD has a stick tang.

My personal experience with Jerry has been excellent but I admit not having had the pleasure of meeting Kevin.

Both excellent designs from different perspectives.

Overall ................Busse is HOT !!!


[This message has been edited by Aubrey (edited 27 October 1999).]
 
OK, I've personally held MD blades after the chrome treatment but before the grips were put on.

They are NOT stick tangs!

Start by visualizing an ATAK, probably the most common Dog. The blade height right in front of the grip is about 2", right? Let's use that for round numbers. As it enters the grip it shortens to about 1.8" tall...a "stick tang" would shorten to .5" or less. The Dog tang stays at 1.8" tall and goes back halfway through the grip where it finally "rounds out". The entire tang is 1/4" stock width with no reductions anywhere.

This is very close to the tang on a Japanese sword. By finely adjusting the tang's length and weight Kevin balances the knife as a whole, that's why critters like the ATAK and Panther feel so "alive" in the hand.

The truth is, no user has ever managed to make a Mad Dog grip fail. Ever. Part of the reason is that the Mad Dog proprietary gripstuff is tough enough to make knives out of all by themselves (that's the Frequent Flyer series).

Yes, the TUSK blade seems to have failed in the field. To me, it doesn't matter because buying a Mad Dog for heavy chopping seems akin to hiring Porshe to build you a farm tractor (although as Cliff notes, it DOES have so much potential). He builds fighters. GOOD ones. The ATAK is unusual because it's a utility knife that can fight well. I think on a heavy-impact-chopper he should have backed off just a hair on that extreme heat-treat he pulls on the 01...but on the ATAK and the various fighters, it sure makes for a nice edge and I wouldn't want my ATAK-type done any other way.

Jim March
 
Jim, as for being able to make knives from the grip, no one is talking about the grip material coming apart, the failure that is being discussed is the bonding of the tang to the grip. This is why Mission flared the end of their tang and why HI (and most other khukuris) have butt-cap's.

buying a Mad Dog for heavy chopping seems akin to hiring Porshe to build you a farm tractor
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If this is supposed to mean that there are better people to make utility knives I would agree. However if it is that these people are in any way less skilled because they don't make "fighters" then that is way off. And of course not evey body wants slim neutral balanced knives for personal combat, the khukuri is an obvious example.

There is nothing magical about being able to make a steel really hard or making a knife neutral balanced and it does not indicate great amounts of skill. It is not always the right thing to do and the why is just as important as the how.

-Cliff
 
Kudos Cliff,

It speaks volumes for your integrity that you can still write so objectively about MD knives after everything that has transpired.

The things I appreciate about Mad Dog knives are the details. The ergonomics, grinds, materials, everthing makes complete sense to me, even the extreme heat treatment. But then, even the ATAK is too big a utility knife for me. I like my utility knives to be under under 6" and ground from something thinner than .25" stock. I am eagerly awaiting my 3/16" Arizona Hunter. For a big chopper, I might well opt for something more mildly tempered than the TUSK.

Dispite the TUSK's Achilles heel, Mad Dog knives are far from being whimps by anybody's standards. I put my Lab Rat through some similar stresses to those that undid the TUSK, with the exception of being hammered on the spine with a Kukri or Uluchet, and it survived without incident. As far as the epoxy failing and the handles falling off, I will worry about it when it becomes a regular and well documented occurrance.

I am sure that the Steel Heart II is also an excellent knife with a lot of great attributes. I plan to own an INFI blade one day, though I tend to consider differences in design and edge geometry much more important than the differences in performance between premium cutlery materials. Initial reports of its performance are certainly impressive, but not enough to make one disregard all other aspects. I frankly don't know which I would choose between the SH II and the ATAK. I would probably go with the one that felt best in my hand.

 
Cliff, the analogy was off on my part, sorry. I wasn't putting down other makers and indeed, I mentioned that in the "heavy chopper category" I'd buy a Busse (or an HI, but that's a somewhat different critter).

As to the glue: #1, it's never failed. #2, Kevin claims to have put an ATAK blade vertically into a vice on the rear of a plumbing truck and towed a 2ton van with a steel cable run through the lanyard hole. And this is NOT with the blade "edge on" to the direction of pull, but rather sideways. Now, Kevin is at times abrasive. He may have problems with contrary views. He has a temper. But, so far as I know, he isn't a liar and I've never heard anyone claim he is. I personally believe an ATAK-construction-type grip can do that. But regardless, we have NO recorded cases of a grip coming apart at the glue seams or anywhere else.

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 19 October 1999).]
 
Just a question, but are the Mad Dog handles 1 or 2 pieces? I was under the impression that they are one piece, because of the shape of the tang, since it's shape facilitates insertion into a single piece grip. If the grip was made in two pieces, I can't see a reason for having the tang be in that shape.... Anyhow, if they are one piece, then the piano wire test isn't that impressive, as I've seen people tow Mack Trucks with their teeth.
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Jim, the glue may not have failed (and given what I've learned from NamViet Vo, and the others who posted on that thread, I'm pretty convinced it wasn't the glue), but it has been determined that there was a failure of some sort that caused the handle to seperate from the tang. If it was a glue/ chrome failure, or a chrome / tang failure, I haven't a clue, but the important thing is that there were failures, which need to be addressed.

Ergonomics-wise, Mad Dog makes some of the best knives out there. They are comfortable as hell, secure during use, etc etc etc. The material is really tough since we've seen it stop .45's... has anyone shot it with small & fast bullets, like the 9mm or .223 to see how it holds up? If not, I guess I will when I have the opportunity.

Mad Dog's knives are definately fighters first, and utility knives second, no argument there. Their toughness is well documented, along with the several user accounts of how the steel holds up, and the quality of the sheaths / Kydex work. Nobody is saying that his knives suck, only that there's room for improvement in everything.

So, if you break it down by who wins in what category....

Cost: Busse
Steel: Busse
Availability: Tie, but Busse is churning them out now, and Kevin is limited to what he can produce.
Sheaths: Mad Dog has better Kydex work, but Busse's are multi-position.
Grip: Mad Dog
Warranty: Busse
Coating: Undetermined, we need more time to tell who's is better. Abrasion wise, the HC is really tough, but there are rust problems as previously noted.
Tang construction: Tie
Model Variety: Mad Dog

It's all a tradeoff... my personal choice is the Busse, but I wouldn't shed any tears if I had to use a Mad Dog. I'd rather spend the extra $100+ I'd save on ammo since I need some target practice
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Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
I wasn't aware of Namviet Vo having a tang-to-grip failure, or anyone else for that matter. I'd like more info...if someone can list the thread URLs where such were discussed I'd appreciate it.

The Mad Dog grips are THREE pieces. There's a "solid ring" about .5" deep right up against the choil, and then the long handle pieces are two seperate slabs either side of the tang forming the rest of the grip. Once the three pieces and the tang are glued into one solid mass the grip is ground down to the final shape...it's not hard to tell how they fit together.

NOTE: The Wombat, Mongoose and the smaller ceramic pieces have a totally different grip. So far we've been talking ONLY about the "ATAK type" grip that formed the model for almost everything else, from Lab Rat to Saxon. Wombat/Mongoose grips are heavy industrial shrink tube that form a surprisingly nice feeling rubbery grip...but it's not as bulletproof as a full-tilt ATAKoid grip.

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 19 October 1999).]
 
When I mentioned NamViet Vo, I meant his post about the glue properties.

On closer examination, I can see divisions of the grip materials seperating it into their seperate pieces (never really looked closely before). Since it's in seperate pieces and put around the handles, I *really* see no reason now why the tang isn't of a shape where it interlocks with the pieces of the handle so that should there be a seperation / failure of one sort or another the knife doesn't fall out. Again, just my 2 cents, this looks like an area where there could be improvement.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Well Spark, I'd agree if I'd ever heard of one coming apart (grips, that is). If one HAS I'd love to know about it. Anybody?

Jim
 
Jim, I'm not saying the grip has ever come apart, I've never heard that.

What I have heard, from 3+ people now, is that either they've personally experienced blade / handle seperation in one form or another or seen it for themselves. Uniformly this has been due to corrosion causing a failure, not the handle seperating into it's component pieces.

Since the handle is made in seperate pieces, it would appear to be childs play to change the tang configuration to allow it to interlock with the handle. Again, just my 2 cents.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark :

I *really* see no reason now why the tang isn't of a shape where it interlocks with the pieces of the handle so that should there be a seperation / failure of one sort or another the knife doesn't fall out.
Click to expand...

Speaking from shaping wood, it would be harder to make that way. A smooth constant taper (the current geometry) is easier to shape than flares.

Jim, as for grip failures Rick has already described them before :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001832.html

The method is certainly possible, if the glue fails the grip comes right off. Glue barriers are possible to break, they are not 100%. Extended stress, physical or chemical will create imperfections in the bond. How much stress does this take - a hell of a lot. I keep meaning to do a simple epoxy test myself and just keep forgetting. I'll probably do it this weekend as its rain and snow for the next week or so. Anyway, the solution is rather trivial, flare the end.

As for the wait until it happens attitude, there are people who actually depend on knives rather seriously. Failures can have serious consequences. Consider the possibility of a failure and the resulting consequences and weigh that against the increase in work that is required to prevent it. I know which side of the balance I would think is heavier.

The real important question is however is it very important to you, the one buying the knife. Personally, it would not stop me as the advantages regarding comfort and fatigue would outweigh the extra security. However if my enviroment changed significantly I would have to rethink. For example, in a recent thread Jeff Randall commented that rusting is something that is just going to happen on most jungle blades (machete types in particular), so just live with it :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000277.html

Considering this might make me lean away from the MD grip.

-Cliff

 
Mad Dog does have variety in his knife design, but if you take into account their availability then it is a moot point.

Mad Dog handle will survive a Mil-Std penetration test for a crash survivable housing but it will not survive a direct hit with a SS-109 round at 40 yards. The Busse handle will not survive either one. Tests were done at Wiley lab in Alabama by me.
 
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