Mad Dog versus Busse

If anyone thinks Jerry Busse "unconditionally" warrants his knives, they should check with Busse before intentionally damaging or destroying their knife. Per Dave Roberson from Busse, "If you intentionally shoot your canvas micarta to see if you can defeat it you are not covered by warrantee. If someone shoots at you and the projectile hits your knife you are covered. If you intentionally take a cutting torch to your Busse you are not covered. If someone atacks you with a cutting torch and your Busse happens to get damaged, you're covered" I assume Kevin's warrantee is similar.

As far as these two manufacturers go, I don't think either feel they are competing against each other. Dave says Busse's biggest competition (at least for the Basic) is Cold Steel.

Anyway, I guarantee, if I honestly wanted to, I can defeat either of these knives. The only question is why would I ever do such a thing?


Peace, Love and Discord,

Giz



[This message has been edited by Giz (edited 24 October 1999).]
 
I agree Giz,

After my test I feel that MAD DOG and Busse are obviously going after different markets. Should Busse make a clear fighting knife out of INFI and in the price range of a Basic? You better look out.

Or better yet if Busse could make a folder out of INFI with a clear tactical blade? Man I gotta a phone call to make!

------------------
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I think if Busse does a fighter with similiar lines as Mad Dog's knives for the price they charge for the Steel Heart II and Battle Mistress, that MD will have to lower his prices or face a decline in demand. In other words, he will have competition from a knife maker of equal to better quality and at a significantly lower price. I am suprised Busse does not do this.

I agree that the Busse Basic models main competition are Cold Steel, but the Basic models are not in the same class of quality as the Steel Heart or Mad Dog knives. The Basic is a watered down quality knife to obtain an increase in the knife market share.

Cold Steel is "smart" they offer a decent product at a decent price, so they have a large market share, let's face it for the price their knives are " damn good".

Question:

Somebody stated Mad Dog sold 6,000 knives in approximately ten years. Why so few ? The planet has approximately 6 billion people.

Answer:

The main reason is price and perhaps production limitations.


----
I think that an MD Atak2 or Busse Steel Heart II are both "overkill" for my needs and would use either if "given" to me, however; since I am spending my *own* money, I shall weigh all of the factors and make an informed decision, with the help of the group.

Best regards,

xxxx
 
My comment about people not discussing issues in MD forums wasn't why I don't post there. It was to explain why in general people are not inclined to start discussions there. I don't post there much anymore simply because I don't see a desire there for objective discussion. I make a post from time to time, but it is generally only to answer a question or similar.

Back to the first part, I recieve email's on a regular basis from people who will not post because of the reactions that tend to follow such questions. Subject like : what should I look for to do XXX, or what are the benefits of ZZZ vs YYY. These discussions are very beneficial, for me as well as the other fellow as we discuss techniques as well as enviromental stresses. I encourage them to post, but threads like this don't help much in that regard.

Another source of valuable information comes as reports of problems. I know a fair amount about makers that is not made public, again because such information is usually not well recieved, especially if the maker/dealer in question is popular. For example look at how the Livesay complaints were responded to awhile ago. Would that encourage anyone else to describe any problems they had?


Anyway, as for the handle on the Busse Battle Mistress, I have been using it for awhile now and I no longer feel that MD's is directly better.

Giz, Busse's warrenty is not the same as MD. Point in fact I discussed what happened with my TUSK, Jerry had no problems with me repeating it with the Battle Mistress.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 25 October 1999).]
 
*** Thread lurk cloak off ***
I always learn so much from these Busse - MadDog threads.
I am only speaking up to help NamViet Vo in confirming that MDs claim of no Government purchased returns means absolutely nothing.
I have worked for the Government for 16 years and only until we started purchasing with IMPAC cards have I ever seen a warranty cashed in on.
Prior to the credit cards I have never ever heard of a warranty being used. With this in mind MD can drop the Government purchase numbers from his statistics.
*** Cloaking on ***
 
Cliff, I have no reason to doubt what Jerry told you. I'm only speaking from several conversations with Dave at the Indy 1500 this past weekend. I was told that, intentionally destroying your knife was not covered. Seems perfectly fair to me. As for Kevin's warrantee, I honestly don't know.

I certainly did not mean to insult Busse. I have a Mean Street, I use daily and I like almost everything about it..

Knives are generally for cutting things. I realize that there will be times for a few of us to need their knife to stand up to extreme usage. I just think we put way too much emphasis on the extreme rather than the intended use. Yes, I know there are adventurers and survival experts who require a knife that will withstand constant "extreme" use.

Mike, I thought your 7" review was good. I still won't use my knife as an axe, but at least I know what will happen if I ever need to.

By the way, my PC caught a cold the other day and I deleted all of my cookies in an effort to fix the problem. How do I get the BFC cookie back?

Peace, Love and discord,
Giz




[This message has been edited by Giz (edited 26 October 1999).]
 
Giz, wording is for lawyers, for the rest of us the warrenty is with the character of the maker/dealer. Specific to Busse's, if he wanted to get legal, any use of the knife voids the warrenty as any and all cutting damages a knife. Cutting cardboard for example will wear, roll and even fracture the edge. It just does so on a very small scale. What is important is that the damage recieved is inline with the stress experienced.

-Cliff
 
I've got a novel concept here. How about the user decides what's "reasonable use," not the maker?

By this I mean:

Scenario A)
The user calls and says, "I was a real idiot and I tried to chop through a cinderblock with my knife. How much to repair it?" The user clearly feels he's exceeded "reasonable," leaving the maker two choices:
1) "No, no, it shoulda held up better, I'll repair/replace at no cost."
2) "Well, hehe, that is a bit much. Send it in and I'll give you a fair quote to get you back in action."

Scenario B)
The user calls and says, "I tried to chop through a cinderblock and your stupid knife chipped! I thought you said it was tough?!?!? I want you to fix it or replace it!"
Maker: "Erm, that seems a bit abusive, doen't it?"
User: "No way! I paid $200 for it! It shoulda held up better."
Maker: "Sigh... OK, send it in then and I'll repair/replace. I hope you understand its limitations now and won't do this again. If that's unacceptable, I'll refund your money."


I think this would assure customer satisfaction. Is it an unreasonable warranty system on a high-priced, hard working knife? I realize taht someone could deliberately break knife after knife and continue getting replacements, but I don't think they would. What are your thoughts?


------------------

-Corduroy
"Why else would a bear want a pocket?"

Little Bear Knives
Drew Gleason:
adg@student.umass.edu
 
Drew, with few exceptions that is basically how it usually works.

One thing that I would suggest to anyone buying a handmade knife is if you have the ability discuss its limits with the maker. If there are any vague references on their part move on. Either they don't know, which is really sad, or they do but will not tell you because they want to over promote their knife which is worse.

As an example os strong behavior, recently I discussed 420V with Phil Wilson and bending limits came up. He commented on the ability of his fillet knives to deform without breaking and went as far as to tell me to check this myself. He also discussed specific test knives he made (geometry and RC) to find out what the limits were for the steel.

-Cliff
 
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, Giz.I don't think enough emphasis is put on toughness and testing makers and manufacturers claims.
This is steel guys, not silk. Steel can be made sharp,hold an edge, and be tough and durable.I don't know about you guys but my money comes way to hard to pay a lot for a weak blade.
Cliff's tests have proven that maximum hardness does not equal maximum edge retention if that is what you are looking for.And the makers discussed on this thread are selling maximum toughness blades.They should be tested in that capacity, even if many who buy the blades won't use it in that capacity.If a lot of people buy these blades for other reasons,(status,collecting,just want the best,etc.)fine,but don't get mad because your favorite didn't hold up as well as somebody elses,let those who need these knives for what they are designed for find out the truth and we can all (including the makers) benefit by it.
I applaud Cliff and Mike and others who truly test and review the blades they use and who do not make excuses or explain away problems for makers and I thank you for all of us that want to know the truth and who use or might need a working or "emergency" knife.
m

[This message has been edited by m (edited 27 October 1999).]
 
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