Mad Dog versus Busse

Cliff, you're right - when I said "better balance" I was referring to a fighting knife in this size class where neutral is better. For a chopping utility knife forward balance will help. I mentioned right after I said "the Dog has better balance" that if I had to pick one for a fight it would be the Dog.

That's where MY "personal biases" come in. I'd much rather have a fighter that can be reasonably pressed into service as a utility knife (the ATAK) versus a utility knife that can be used as an "edged bludgeon" (
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) in a fight.

Jim
 
Cliff, please clear something up for me, if you had in mind something on par with the BM, why didn't you just get a BM? Aren't they about half the price of a TUSK?

About the dealers recommending the TUSK over the BM, did these dealers carry Busse? If they didn't, well that's just good old snake oil salesmanship. They probably never thought you would do what you did with a $900 blade, and they'd never have you come back at them with a broken knife.

As far as Missions handles being more secure then a MD because of a flared tang, what does mission use to secure the blade in the handle? MD's explanation of his handle construction is as follows:

"I do not use "glue". I use structural adhesives. Glue is an animal or vegetable byproduct.
Structural adhesives are scientifically formulated to do specific jobs.
The adhesive material I use is the same as the matrix material in the
composite; once bonded, it truly becomes one piece."

This would lead me to believe that after Kevin has completed the handle, it's essentially one piece. And since it's not epoxy, but the same material as the handle is made of, which you must admit, has proven it self to be very strong, anything less must be viewed as inferior.

LD
 
Jim, no offense, but I think you are being fed a load. The story isn't remaining consistant...

During the 3 years now that I've been dealing with knife forums of one kind or another, I have seen waaaaaaaay more than 3 threads from different concerning "Something is wrong with my MD knife, what do I do?" Heck, I can name 2 instances off the top of my head: the guy who stuck his in the campfire, a few that broke off the tips of their knives, the guy who got shot in the leg, etc. We've seen more than a few "My knife arrived dull!" warranty posts. Rick from Mission (and a few others) have personally seen ones with the handle no longer attached due to rust, and I've got emails from others who said essentially "My knife broke, but I didn't want to deal with the ridicule of posting a message about it..." Given all the abuse and insults heaped on anyone who has a problem, I'm not suprised. These posts unfortunately have all been deleted now on the MD forum, and quite frankly I don't feel like searching any harder, but everyone remembers them being there. Furthermore, since "digging" is considered abuse, it's no wonder that they aren't being returned... They wouldn't be replaced!

This "only X number of knives has ever come in" isn't even consistent, look at the number stated in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003933-2.html

In regards to the TUSK's being used and used hard, I personally doubt it. Sure, he's got sales, but the $900 price tag puts it way out of reach of even middle enlisted, and most junior officers. Apache Pilots don't count, because pilots don't work - I don't consider that hard use by a military member.

ATAK's I can see being used and used hard. TUSK's I can't, and for people who raised such a noise when a TUSK was used to dig small holes, heck, why should it be used to chop when you can get a cheaper, purpose suited axe? Heck, if digging is considered abuse, chopping isn't? Right....

Cliff has been the most detached and objective person I've seen considering this issue. Even when he was being insulted, ridiculed, belittled, and generally treated like crap he maintained his composure and didn't look for an easy way out or any old excuse. He's not backpedaling. He's not changing his story. He's not making outrageous claims or boasts. He's stated the facts.

Anyone who has a problem is universally painted as a miscreant, someone out to just smear Mad Dog, blah blah blah, and the problem is ignored. I consider this an example of "ostrich" behavior. Instead of subscribing to a "cult of personality", how about we all seek a solution to the problem(s), and try to make it better?

Make no mistake - I like Kevin's knives. I like the materials he uses in them. I have no financial interest in either him, or Busse, or any of 100 other makers. I just want to see improvement of these problems.

LuckyDog - in regards to the handle construction and security, Mission's tang is flared and the material is molded around it. It doesn't use "structural adhesive", just the handle material; it's not going to slip out because it can't. The entire handle has to come apart, because of the flanges. Mad Dog's tangs don't have any flanges, in fact they are tapered so that they will not remain secure should there be a bonding failure. If Mad Dog changed his tang construction, that would render this argument moot.

Between Mission's and Mad Dog's handle materials, there is no doubt that Mad Dog's is tougher. However, the construction is inferior due to the lack of mechanical lockup. Change the construction slightly so that there is solid mechanical lockup, and the problem is solved, especially if the "structural adhesive" truly bonds the material into a solid unit.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Just for the record the test I am performing will show the Edge holding ability as well as the choping ability. According to the above the Busse should win the chop test hands down.

Can anyone tell me about a specific test that will show which is a better fighter? I am at a loss for that one.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
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Lucky :

About the dealers recommending the TUSK over the BM, did these dealers carry Busse?
Click to expand...

One did and specifically quoted test results comparing the two by himself and another individual. As for them being promotional, of course they were, my comments were only to show that the divergence that seems to be taking place between MD and heavy utility is of a recent nature.

They probably never thought you would do what you did with a $900 blade
Click to expand...

I told them. They should have certainly been clued in the second time.

if you had in mind something on par with the BM, why didn't you just get a BM?
Click to expand...

The TUSK has significant advantages, most of which I covered in an earlier post in this thread.

what does mission use to secure the blade in the handle
Click to expand...

Rick and Spark have covered this in previous posts in detail, very basically, the handle is one piece of solid material which you would have to rip the tang through in order for it to come off.

And since it's not epoxy, but the same material as the handle is made of, which you must admit, has proven it self to be very strong, anything less must be viewed as inferior.
Click to expand...

MD's grip material could quite possibly be stronger / tougher than Missions. That was never the issue. What is being discussed here is a lack of a failsafe in the case of a broken bond, which can happen whatever method you use to make it.

For example, in out lab there are windows bonded onto the ends of tubes. Once the adhesive is set they are impossible to remove by force. I have even tried inserting a rod down the tub and slamming it into the window as hard as I could with no effect. However over a few years the bond is broken as on one side of the window is gas at high pressure and this causes tunnels in the adhesive, eventually this causes a visible path which you can see, and of course the gas will leak out of.

-Cliff
 
Your test for which is the best fighting knife should include an actual knife fight between the Cold Steel guy and the MD guy. Not much would be revealed about the knives, of course, but the end result (whoever won) would result in much less global warming (hot air) in the years to come.
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I have personally not return unconditional warranty merchandises for a replacement because I do not want another POS back. I still like Mad Dog knives but not necessary his warranty, even though I don't think I will ever need it. I have personally left government furnished equipments (GFE) oversea after a job because I was directed to do so or because the risk bringing it home is too great. Some of those GFE cost in the 6 digit range. If you are on a mission and your knife break in half, do you carry the broken pieces around until you get back for warranty works? Or do you leave it where it is and grab the first kitchen knife that you see? Not having a product return for warranty work does not mean that it is failsafe. Personally, I believe the MPK has better balance and the low maintenance aspect of it is just too peachy to ignore.
 
Ok Cliff I'll admit to not reading every post on this subject, I just don't have that big a stake in this argument. All my MD's are fighters, which I might carry while walking my dog or some such, not exactly pushing the limits of these knives. I don't think anyone will argue that they are great fighters. Self-defense is my main concern, not chopping trees; for that I'll use another tool. Nor will I expose a carbon steel knife to salt water. I understand that some military types might be forced to use their knives harder, and in more diverse environments then I'll ever under normal circumstances be forced to do. That being said I have a different use for the knives, and as such different expectations.

About your windows in your lab, what adhesive is used? If it's different then what MD uses, then I don't think a comparison is fair, do you?

Lastly, and I mean this with all due respect, this should be taken to MD's forum, where Kevin, who is much more qualified to discuss then anyone who has responded this may react.

LD
 
Mike raised a good question about "how do you objectively test a fighter?".

A few obvious points:

1) A fighter will have neutral-feeling balance UNLESS we're talking about a blade so hefty it can cleave skull seriously enough for a "stopper move". Neither the Steel Heart or the ATAK qualify. The TUSK and maybe Battle Mistress could barely, concievably pull such a trick...my Outsider may be the shortest overall blade length piece ever that can probably pull that trick. It can do a through-and-through on a coconut (with the soft outer husk pulled but the hard shell intact). Almost all Khukuris can pull it off.

2) A good fighter in the "Western light-Bowie tradition" will make it easy to line the tip up with the forearm's bone structure on a straight Saber-grip thrust. This can be measured, I'd think.

3) Reduced overall weight in this class is good too.

4) The grip should "index" in the hand well, telling you not only where the edge is but exactly where the grip is "vertically" in your hand too (meaning, just how close to the blade is your hand). Yet it should "whisper" this to you, not "scream it out" with klunky protrusions that bits of your hand flesh rudely get jammed up on. After all, the most important focus of your concentration needs to be the guy trying to geek you, not your knife. In my opinion, this is the area where a Mad Dog will absolutely positively kick almost anything else's pommel.

This would be a good start.

Jim
 
Lucky, the bonding behavior is an example of how a high strength bond can be broken with an enviroment stress. The actual strength of the bond in the unstressed state was never an issue.

As for discussing these issues in MD's forum, MD does not promote the discussion of his products in an objective manner hence the lack of desire for people to seek information there.

As for being a good "fighter", not all fighting styles are similar and thus very different knives are used. You need to be specific here about the way in which you are using it. Someone studing Bando would probably have a very different opinion perspective than a western bowie stylist.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, bring up the failure characteristics of one bonding agent and using it as an example of the way another agent may fail is like comparing apples to oranges. Your point is not valid.

Your unwillingness to bring this to Mad Dog shows badly on you. You're well aware that he's not going to come here to defend himself. And you seem to use every opportunity to stir the MD pot here, but not there.

I'm not going to discuss the fighting aspect of the knives, because I'm not qualified, are you? I'm foremost a collector, but I have confidence that if I had to pull out a knife, if my firearm failed, I could do some damage. Do I need a Mad Dog for that? No I don't. But I like the fact that my MD's are strong, well balanced, and sharp as hell. And with the Panther the reach it affords is an added plus.


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LD
"Every Dog Has His Day"
BFC Member Since October 2, 1998

 
Luckydog, that's hogwash. If the bonding compoud that Cliff refer's to acts in a similar manner (bonding the two sections into one unit), then it's perfectly applicable.

Second, Mad Dog has every opportunity to step up to the plate here and discuss this, we have repeatedly invited him to join in. I for one would like to see his insights on several issues regarding materials composition, heat treating, or anything else. You may call it stirring the pot, but that doesn't apply since the questions were brought up and they are all valid points. Again, it would be better to try to solve problems than point fingers, right?

Furthermore, it's been shown time and again that ridicule, insults and editing other people's posts aren't part of our repertoire, so there are no barriers to discussion here. I don't know about you but I remember Cliff discussing these issues on MD's forum repeatedly, and I remember how he (and others with similar concerns) were treated.

Finally, I agree with you re: discussion on which knife is a better fighter, because I too have little (almost none) knife training, and am not really qualified to lend an opinion on a knife's worthiness as a fighter. Tell you the truth, I don't see myself getting in a knife fight, especially with anything other than what I carry in my pockets...

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark, you may correct me if I'm wrong, it happens, but I recall Cliff's window analogy from earlier posts, where the adhesive in question was epoxy. If my memory serves me, and it is epoxy then comparing epoxy and MD's bonding agent has no validity.

Furthermore, if the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then Mohammed must go to the mountain. I will say Kevin's refusal to post here is pig headed, but you or anyone else can be the bigger person and go there. Not going there takes away some of the value of MD's detractors arguments.

Lastly, I'm not pointing fingers, what I'm doing is taking on some very gifted debaters, in a futile attempt to point out some holes in their arguments, and also show that not all that seems objective is.

LD
 
OK, whatever. This tang rusting issue is utter nonesense. Vapor. It doesn't happen. There is one report from a Mad Dog competitor with no details or analysis, and a rumor of a couple of people who are too shy to post and apparently also had too little self-esteem to return their guaranteed, $350 knives. I don't buy that at all, but if someone does, they may also think a Busse with an exposed tang is less susceptible to rust under the epoxied handle scales than a Mad Dog knife with a fully hidden tang under a bonded handle. Some people are so focused on discussing non-existent problems with Mad Dogs that they forget the topic of this thread is comparing Mad Dogs to Busses, and if anything Mad Dogs have the edge over Busse in the tang protection department, assuming we are comparing Mad Dogs to handmade Busses that is.
 
Well if you want to bring up MAD DOG not coming over here nad defending himself that is his tough luck. We all know what happened when I went over there and tried to defend myself. It got deleted. I can assure that will not happen here.

I understand why Cliff will not go to that forum as he will be systematically made to look like a fool.

Not trying to bring up a sore subject but it needs to be understood why Cliff no longer visits there and I understand from first hand experience.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
And we are all so happy!

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Have fun but at no ones expense.

And Mad Dog... GET YOUR A S S IN HERE!

Defend thy self and the church of the tactical truth shall be saved!

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
Hello group,

I have been thinking about MD's (Kevin's) private email where he stated MD-Atak2 is not in the same class as the Busse Steel Heart II. At first I disagreed but later I thought that perhaps he is right. I looked at the MD-Arizona Hunter 2, but if MD considers this to be in the Steel Heart II class I would still have to lean towards the Steel Heart II. It is just simply more knife and the the knife steel is better.

Really MD knives appear visually to be fighter oriented and Busse knives are utility oriented. In other words, a civilian would lean towards the Busse knife, as they are looking for 90% utility and 10% fighter and a soldier would lean towards MD which is 60% utility and 40% fighter.

In my case the chance I would actually stab someone in self defence with a knife is slim to none, so I am looking for utility. I do not consider myself a knife expert, but I do consider myself your A-Typical knife buyer who wishes to make an informed decision and these are my thoughts.

The one thing I can say about the MD-Atak2 compared to the Busse Steel Heart 2 in the comparison picture on this thread, is that the MD knives are sexy !! They remind me of a "Blue Shark" cruising through the ocean and cutting the water in all their beauty and splendor, but watch out, they will cut your legs off, if they want too.

The Busse reminds me of a six foot five husky lumber jack who cuts down trees with an axe all day. You know his body will never break down because he is so strong and will complete any utility type job.

I do tend to agree with the group that Busse has the better steel and MD has the better handle. I am surprised Busse does not pickup on that fact. Perhaps, they feel their handle is superior.

Does the group feel that the bolt method to attach the handle to the tang is inferior, perhaps it will cause rust ??

Here is the picture link again, in case you missed it;
http://home.earthlink.net/~grnamin/3knives.gif


Best regards,

xxxx

 
4x, that's a pretty good analysis, and it probably matches why Kevin himself claims that him and Jerry are aiming at two different markets.

Kevin has *never* spoken poorly of Jerry Busse or his products, other than to note that he personally won't be doing INFI blades because Jerry has to control the heat-treat step. But that's just a comment on Kevin's preferred internal control of that step, not a negative on Jerry. He fondled someone's Busse short sword at K'nugen1 and seemed fairly impressed by it.

In short, if owning a fighter is low on your list of priorities, Jerry makes a damn fine blade. But the first chance you get, handle a Dog...especially an ATAKoid or a "pure fighter" like the Wild Thing, Shrike, Voodoo Child/Queen, Panther, etc.

Jim
 
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