Made in America

RDT said:
ATS 34 = Japanese
154 CM = American (version of ATS34)

154 CM is actually a couple bucks more expensive than ATS at certain steel dealers. Or it has been at times as the price of steel changes frequently enough. Go figure...:rolleyes:

That is exactly the way I always understood it, but I have two different knives at home, both with ATS-34 blades, and USA stamped right into the blade.

Now sure, the knives were manufactued in the US, but if the steel came from Japan, is it really a "made in the USA" knife?

Not that I could care either way, but it is a point of interest.
 
Where did the oxygen come from that the knifemaker breathed while he was making that blade? :)

As I understand it, 154-CM became unavailable at one point, so knifemakers began using ATS-34, a reasonably similar steel. Then 154-CM came back on line as a reliable source, and American makers could use it instead of the import. But especially custom makers always had the ATS-34 option. It might have been marginally more profitable to manufacture production models in ATS-34 in Japan. Some of those knives would have been made in japan anyway.
 
Harry Callahan said:
When it comes to Spyderco, I actually prefer the Seki models over the Golden knives. Oh sure, when a certain design that's only available from the Golden plant comes along that I've just "gotta have", I don't hesitate. But when overall quality is concerned the Seki stuff wins hands down and I get WAY more jazzed over them. Those guys are simply light years ahead. American workers need to start cranking out that kind of quality.

That, in itself, would go a long ways toward bringing our manufacturing power back home. Pride in workmanship and attention to detail.

Agreed, the Golden ones always seem like a lottery as to whether you have one without a scratched clip or scuff.
 
I hate to say it but com[aratively speaking, foreign workers will work harder period. THey don't get benefits the way we do. They don't get time off the way we do. They have to work or perish. There is serious survival motivation over seas compared to here. We are a bit arrogant in comparisson. That would be in the poorer countries anyway. As far as Japan is concerned they just have an insane work ethic.
 
The majority of my knives are American. Nothing but love from Benchmade's American stuff. Spyderco's American stuff, for me, has had fit and finish issues, from the very minor to the somewhat bothersome. Buck's stuff has been good to me.

My Taiwanese CRKT knives have always been top notch quality. The Seki Spyderco knives I've used were also very high quality.

Mainly, I don't want to buy from China. I prefer the USA, but I really don't think twice about ordering a knife from Japan, and in the case of CRKT, Taiwan.
 
The reason I am trying to sell so many knives from my collection is that most of my customers for metal castings are sourcing in China, and there is no way to compete against them with domestic suppliers.

Do you have any idea how much cheaper Chinese goods really are? On a typical raw steel casting, they are $0.20-0.23 on the dollar versus domestic, and that's landed at a point of entry. On an assembly, or something requiring a lot of hand work, it gets worse. One of my customers makes locks. If a lock costs them $20.00 to make domestically, it will cost them $4.00 if they make it at their Mexican plant, and it will cost them $1.00 to buy it in China!

BTW, how do you determine "how American" a product is today? About (2) years ago, the Honda was the "most American-made" car.

Mikey
 
I would like to see more good knives made here in the U.S. also. I have had some really nice folders via Spyderco and their Seki-City stuff. Really nice stuff for a low price.

On the other hand, I have not seen a whole lot of companies make a better knife than the Benchmade's that are over about $90. They have unreal fit and finish.

I too have been bitten by the American auto market. After 2 American cars in a row having problems out the butt I will not go back. All the guys I work with have either Toyota trucks or Honda cars. My next will be one of those.

I guess it's as simple as this: Make a better product and stand behind it and people will buy it. That's how America used to be. People and companies in America have slacked off and now it shows.

I don't have any problems with Japan, Switzerland, or a few others. I will not buy a China or Taiwan made knife. Japan does damn good with their steel and it shows. I've seen a handful of Chineese knives and I would never ever want to have any. Same with some from Pakistan.

I was surprised to hear that Kershaw is owned completely by a Japaneese firm. Oh well, we are a global economy.

I do somewhat agree with what Ernest Emerson said in his "The Way I See It" thing. (http://www.emersonknives.com/MyView_index.html )

When America starts making better stuff again I will buy it. Until then I will buy what is reliable and does a good job for me and lasts a long time. I will not buy an American truck just to buy American and have it break down all the time and be in the shop. No way.
 
illumination said:
It is depressing...more and more blades seem to be made overseas. I'm willing to pay more for the "USA" stamp on the blade; unfortunately it seems most of America won't.

Which companies still make most of there blades here? I noticed that many Benchmades used to be made in the US, but lately I have noticed the photos on the website no longer have the "USA" on the blade (have they expanded outsourcing). It seems that many of Spyderco's knives are made in Japan. Likewise, many of Buck's cheaper blades are made in Taiwan (kudos for making others here though). And forget Gerber, etc.



It's no secret on the forums that I'm big on made in the USA.So, I'm happy to see there are more people like me.If you want made in the USA,then all it takes is searching for it.On-line access has opened up alot of doors to locate items made in the USA.Fortunatley,there are many knife companies that still have product lines made here,so you should be able to find what you want easily.As far as Spyderco,I've never had any problem with Colorado,USA quality issues.
 
Not that I didn't have a clue about China anyway,but for all that haven't read the Emerson link you should.Anybody that doesn't put in some effort to control their Chinese import purchasing has got a screw loose.Destroying are economy isn't the only result of not giving a crap what the label say's.WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
 
The knock-on effect of 1 person losing a job is pretty harsh for other businesses, keep buying or rather insist on Made in the USA.

New 154CM Will do everything ATS-34 will. S30V beats most other steels hands down. Just keep sending them back if they are not up to snuff, sooner or later the penny will drop about what is acceptable quality.
 
TOMBSTONE said:
Not that I didn't have a clue about China anyway,but for all that haven't read the Emerson link you should.Anybody that doesn't put in some effort to control their Chinese import purchasing has got a screw loose.Destroying are economy isn't the only result of not giving a crap what the label say's.WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

Posting on Emerson link is interesting to READ. Yet, its opinion. I don't believe everything on it.

Look at today's China. China is not a country of pure "communist". Economy IS the most important piority to China. They are not stupid enough to get rush into a war situation, when they are trying to catching up whatever they miss yrs ago. Will China open a war towards Taiwan. I don't believe so. Taiwan economy has been bottom of the ocean since China open for trade. What Taiwan is holding on is the computer industry. Which, most current Taiwanese computer, umbralla, shoe industry factories are moved to China for cheaper cost and label "made in China". There is no need for China to open war against Taiwan. Economy pressure is good enough to press Taiwan down. Two will have war only if Taiwan declare independence without considering US's position. President Bush has already saying over and over he is NOT (He repeated 3 times during his Asia trip) taking sides of Taiwanese. Simply, money, is what he had in mind. Trading goes well with China will benefit both side.

Good economy is what keeps a country's world status high. Who has more "bling bling" is what everyone have in mind. Is China a threat to US, Yes. Is China going to have a war against Taiwan or perhaps US? No. They can't affort to. Is China a friend or foe? Up to you to decide. World of politic, everyone is trying to act as if they are friends. China isn't exactly alone on this issue.

Leave the Chinese issue to Chinese. Have we learn that yet?
 
mlot51 said:
A little over the Top? Maybe, maybe not. But an interesting read none-the-less.....

http://www.emersonknives.com/MyView_index.html


Amen to that 100%
BUT what you can'do american sold few attack helicopter Apache to Iran;
They are not our friend? They are our enemy?
Who Knows?
who are the F........that make this kind of decision to sell that shit...?
Big money? Big war?
Who knows?
I don't know which way to turn to find means;)








plan no useless move, take no step in vain.
-----------------------------------------
ishiyumisan
 
Back in my darker days, when I thought Frost USA knives were high quality because they were made from "surgical steel", I bought some Mtech knives. They were "Made in USA, assembled in China." Even back then, I thought that was hilarious. A lot of foreign vehicles are assembled over here, and a lot of domestic vehicles are assembled over there, also, the parts are made over there before they're shipped here to be assembled. Just an observation.
 
The American Mold Builders Association did a study a few years back on the Chinese advantage in making tools. The study did a breakdown of the percentage of costs to make a tool in the US and compared it to China.
The average costs for a tool were broken down as such:
29% Overhead costs
26% Labor costs
19% Materials
The rest was pretty much fluff.

China had on average 1/12 the labor rate and 1/2 the overhead rate due to government subsidy. They actually pay more for their materials than we do.
So on average, right out of the box they have a 39.5% cost advantage on US manufacturing. This was confirmed by actual quotes being roughly 40% cheaper when quoted. As commented above this is nothing we can do anything about. It's China and it's fact. It was interesting to read Ernest Emerson's take on China whittling down our manufacturing base. It's easy to blame them when in fact the blame lies with our own manufacturing base costing themselves out of the markets and outsourcing. Look at what is happening to GM, Ford, Chrysler the backbones of manufacturing. They put themselves in their own holes with outlandish union contracts and benefit packages. Even the UAW acknowledges they bit off too much. They'll pay the price with many less jobs over the next few years. On the other side, the Japanese can put up plants in the US, employ US workers, make a profit and make a better vehicle. That proves it can be done, just not by the old "traditional" companies. Some blame our government. Here's something to chew on. Agriculture is roughly 8-9% of our Gross National Product. We have a department of Agriculture, Secretary of Agriculture, subsidies, etc. Manufacturing, et al is roughly 26% of the GNP. No department of Manufacturing, no Secretary of Manufacturing, etc. The government has left manufacturing's future up to individual companies who base their decisions not on what is good for the US but what is good for profits and their shareholders (The US public). You want to find the bad guys that ruined US manufacturing. Have our companies look in the mirror
 
A while back, I didn't care where something was made as long as I got the most quality and value for what I was paying for. But from my experience, I've had luck with things made in Japan (Toyota, Panasonic, Spyderco,etc.), so now I actively look for things made in Japan. I at least have some gauge of the QC put into the product. But then it depends on what I'm buying, like tequila - can't find this nectar in Japan or China.
 
Satrang said:
China had on average 1/12 the labor rate and 1/2 the overhead rate due to government subsidy.

So it would seem to me that the Chinese government "subsidies" are a huge part of why it is cheaper to build stuff in China. If the subsidies were taken away, there would be far less temptation to outsource, BUT prices would be higher. The CONSUMER, unfortunately has decided that the only important thing to them is the cheapest price. The US companies (and European ones for that matter) are only delivering what we (the consumers) want. While Im not letting the companies off the hook, we can also blame ourselves (the Consumers, share holders) for the loss of manufacturing jobs here.
 
A customer just wants a good price as things go up in cost in this country the demand for goods with lower prices grows. Consumers can't be faulted for not being rich. Maybe the US should subsidize new businesses and help the little man, in turn providing America with more business and jobs for itself. That will never happen though. Too many people in our Government have business interests, ties and investments and they are always looking for the cheapest investment with maximum profit.

Share holders, okay but the controlling share holders only. Not Grandma who just did what her broker told her to do to make a few bucks in retirement.

Corporations, absolutely to blame. From Real Estate to Oil to Cars they have been known to manipultate political and finacial atmospheres to their advantage.

Consumers? Well maybe in some cases. If consumers keep consuming without paying attention to the results of all their consumption then okay we are to blame as all businesses rely on our willingness to buy, to consume. So if we restrict what we consume and find alternatives then MAYBE we can sway industry, government, etc to our collective agenda.

However, with corporate and would be corporate entities continuing to squeeze cash and credit out of every Americans pocket at every possible angle(Medical, Real Estate, Taxes, Low minimum wage, Oil/Gasoline, Utilities, etc) The consumer is just doing what they think the need to do in order to get a decent product at a decent price.

As far as Capitalism is concerned, there is no reason why a US company shouldnt go over seas to maufacture a product, spending less on said product's production in order to make more money than they would with a US manufacturer with higher production costs.

There is no winning here. The only thing to do would be to completely detach yourself from "things". Buy nothing, remove yourself from the list of consumers. Live as bare as possible without the need for toys, amusements, tools, etc. That is easier said than done and usually achived by those in Monastic orders.

All I can say for myself is, while I'm not living like a Monk. I do what I can to alleviate suffering in this world, I am also not rich. I also realize that a man is a man whether he is Chinese or American or German or Indian, etc, and we all need work regardless of our country of origin. So when I know my money puts food on someones table, I am happy no matter what. When I know my money gets invested by say a Bank I used to use in certain industries I do not like and lines the pockets of people who's pockets are too well lined already, I am not happy. So I pull out of that Bank and find a lesser Bank. Maybe it has fewer branches but whatever. So we have to pick and choose our battles and choose the biggest of the bunch first, the little ones will eventually either cure themselves, stay little, or if they grow too large then they will need to be taken down.
 
RDT said:
As far as Capitalism is concerned, there is no reason why a US company shouldnt go over seas to maufacture a product, spending less on said product's production in order to make more money than they would with a US manufacturer with higher production costs.

Agreed. But if the company is going overseas to produce products in a factory whose government subsidizes said factory so labor rates are low, it just doesnt seem like fair competition to me. The US government doesnt subsidize my business, and it shouldnt. Maybe Im an Idealist, but I would just like to see a more level playing field. Good, fair competition is best for everyone IMHO.
 
Yes Sir, however that is the benefit to the business in a Communist country but a detrement to the worker. Funny how that works huh? THen again, I believe they get free medical which is actually paid for via various "Social" expenses. We cannot demand the same from other countries with other methods of government. Shoot, I think the US should subsidize your business or at least offer qualifying Grants to businesses in need. I don't mean loans either, Grants! As you are an honest business in this country and you take care of this country by employing its citizens, bringing it revenue via taxes, etc. So should the Government help you when in need. Funny how we can't go and arrest anyone in the Gov for not helping us help them, for non payment of taxes, for over spending on Toilet bowl seats and using Military and Government planes for private occasions but they can come get us in a heart beat for similar offenses. It would certainly be ideal for every country to be able to fairly compete with one another. But, we aren't a "one world government" just yet. So there are few rules applicable to non Capitalist countries. I think eventually we will be. If not in facade certainly in finance. Heck, we already are. But it will be very evident in the future when the minor powers in the world and 3rd world countries will absolutely have to deal with and maintain relationships with the major powers of the world. But by then in a truly Global economy, giving our cash to India will be the same as giving to the US. It's a shame I know, but that's an issue to take up with Oil men, the World Bank, Arms manufacturers and the ruling classes of the major powers.
 
PS, Just read Ernie's whole China rant. I agree with a lot of it to an extent. That certainly we could be dragged into war with them eventually. I don't think it will go that far however. I think if we should fear any Nuclear power it's North Korea but that's just me. Most of Southern China, HK, Shanghai etc are stuffed with foreign military, US and British businessmen, etc. I mean big business too not a few hundred grand a year or million dollar a year knife operation. I think money is always a deciding factor in war and peace and they have too much at stake. Sure they may make weapons to counter or out do ours but didn't we do the same to against the Russians? That is the hallmark of an arms race. The more you have the more other countries feel forced to listen to you. Strategically we surround China as well. Between South Korea, even Indonesia (Timor), Malaysia, Japan, just about everywhere we have installations of strategic value. I think the West’s method of control is money and the appearance of a fair market free society and the East’s is labor and a menacing appearance in a restrictive society. They don't exist without one another though. His statements are all plausible for sure but are guesses for the most part as far as war is concerned. Possible yes, probable, I don't think so only because money and wealth are the key factors. I don't fear China, I don't agree with them, but I don't fear them. We (major "free" powers) could crush China economically if we wished and very quickly. China can only drop bombs on us, to which we would reply the same. The Govt there IMHO is only Commie in appearance but at heart and the highest levels are far more Capitalist then anyone realizes. If they truly had hatred enough to hatch such a plan against the "free" world that it takes decades and shifts in power there, then why the shifts in power at all? why the continued need to find work and be paid by bourgeois Capitalist pigs like us and Britain and all the other European powers? I think because there are too many of them and they need food, housing and the Govt needs to have those thinsg to provide at its will to maintain control over so many people. In other words if their ideologies were truly heart felt they wouldn't bother doing business with the West. They need us. They will probably take Taiwan but there will be 10 years worth of negotiating probably before anyone presses any buttons.
 
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