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Made in the USA
- Thread starter Popsickle
- Start date
Buck has a big reputation as being American so I have to agree with that. And blade steel wise I feel they are doing a disservice to their brand, it's not up to what I feel Buck standards should be.
I understand it's how they hit that price point but I wish they found other means to do so and kept it USA made with 420hc. Than I could tell people to go pick out a Buck inife, any Buck it will serve you well when they ask me what is a good knife to get. But I can't, so it's a lot harder answer, and it's harder to explain to them how to avoid their China made knives with 420j2. Had it been halfway decent steel, no problem. But it's not.
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Quartermaster, Darrel Ralf has several models from China (not all), etc.
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As long as we're on the subject... my issue with Knifecenter (and some others) is that they ignore their obligation as the seller to know the truth of their "USA Made" claims. It is an obligation of not only the manufacturer (Quartermaster) but the dealer. If they can't or won't verify the claim, the answer is not to say "it's too much trouble," it's to drop the highly dubious claim from their description.
I’m inclined to challenge this, for reasons of precedent. Dealers shouldn’t be expected to fact check, until or unless the integrity of a maker is called into question. If they were expected to do so, they would need to field research teams, because they would have to confirm production and supply chain for each model, from each maker. Further, where would the line for the expectation of their fact checking be drawn? If we say that the dealer is responsible for verification of origin claims, then do we hold them to verifying material claims such as blade steel, liner material, CF vs laminate, detent or bearing material, etc?
I believe the makers should be accountable, and have contracts with dealers allowing the dealer to recoup expenses for products against which integrity challenges prove true. This incentivizes honest advertising and protects dealers.
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Russia is a big producer of titanium but China does produce significantly more
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The law is quite clear. If one advertises a product as being USA Made, it better damned well be true. The alternative is to not make the claim if it can't be verified to the dealer's satisfaction. The dealer can have indemnity agreements with their suppliers - if they can get them to give them one. That's not my concern. My concern is false claims of USA Made by the people selling the product.
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In the overwhelming majority of cases a producer can be taken at their word in good faith, but I can imagine that if you actually wanted to carry a product by a company with some evidence of not being truthful about their country of origin then some kind of challenge could be made for them to step up to or run from. There's usually little reason to both doubt the producer's claim and want to carry their product (if they're lying about that, what other tricks might they try to pull?) but if you choose to carry their products anyhow you shouldn't pass on their claim if you have reason to suspect if of being untruthful. There's an ethical mandate to either verify that claim or else not post the assertion in your own promotion of the product.
By this line, it would stand to reason that a dealer must also be expected to confirm materials of specific advertised components, correct? CF vs peel ply, steel testing to confirm type, backspacer composition, etc, from every maker?
At which point is the line drawn?
I’m not a knife dealer. I’m strictly a consumer within this industry. My personal sense is that I wouldn’t blame Dealer X if they took a maker on good faith, advertised origin in line with the maker’s statements, and subsequently discovered that the maker misrepresented the claim. As long as the dealer takes appropriate action when the correct information surfaces, I’m good with them.
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China produces more titanium sponge but as of now the finished alloys aren't comparable to Russian ti alloys, which are about as good as it gets. But being China the quality and purity of their finished ti alloys will probably keep getting better rapidly as the industry is refined.
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I think maybe you quoted the wrong person or misunderstood my point. I was saying that a dealer only has a moral obligation to verify country of origin classification if they have good reason to suspect that the producer is bending the truth. Otherwise they can typically be taken at their word. If a dealer has reason to suspect that a producer is lying about the country of origin of their products, chances are they'll just opt not to deal with a shady company. But if they do choose to carry that product for some reason, they have the moral responsibility to EITHER verify the claim OR omit the claim instead.
Indeed. I was off. We’re in alignment.
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Didn't even know what Titanium sponge was, found this link talking about it. http://metalpedia.asianmetal.com/metal/titanium/titaniumsponge.shtml
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You're both missing the point. The dealer ("marketer" in the parlance of the law) has a legal obligation to not advertise products as USA Made unless they are, in fact, made in the USA. They are free to ignore that obligation, take the word of their suppliers, or even knowingly make false assertions of country of origin provenance. Regardless, the law places the burden on them to know the truth of their representations. When GP Knives, BladeHQ, and a couple of others, realized that Quartermaster was full of #%&@, they dropped the USA Made claim. Knifecenter refused to do so. I'll never buy from them again.
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No, I'm not missing the point--I was speaking from an ethics standpoint, not a legal one. Talk to a lawyer for legal advice. I'm saying that if you're given reason to suspect that the manufacturer's claim is untrue then you shouldn't be posting the claim. Even better is to stop carrying the product.
You just described a specific scenario in which:
- maker claims USA made
- dealers initially take the maker on good faith and advertise accordingly, absent a reason to fact check
- integrity issues are later raised
- dealers take action when given a reason to question maker integrity
That sounds strikingly familiar.
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From the Late Chuck Buck on this subject. In fact the models made in China which is a small percentage were never produced here.
Chuck Buck: "About 13 percent. Walmart, our largest account, wants price points around $9, $12, $15, and its pretty hard for us to do that here. Most of our Chinese-made products go to Walmart."
So in late 2011 87% were US made
They are working at bringing everything back to US.
POST FALLS – About five years ago, CJ Buck picked up a fishing knife made in Taiwan, tested its blade and studied its craftsmanship.
In spite of himself, the fourth-generation knife maker was impressed. Buck is president and chief executive officer of Buck Knives Inc., a privately held family firm whose products enjoy iconic status with hunters and fishermen, a clientele loyal to “Made in USA” labels.
The fillet knife from Taiwan, however, was comparable to in quality to products made at Buck Knives’ San Diego factory. And it sold at a 30 percent discount.
It was truth time for Buck.
“We had a choice to become an importer, or to maintain a manufacturing connection,” Buck said. “The family wanted Buck Knives to continue making most of its product right here in the United States.”
To do that, the company turned to lean manufacturing.
Since Buck Knives’ move to Post Falls last year, most media reports have focused on how Idaho’s lower labor and energy costs will help the company, founded by Buck’s great-grandfather, compete against Asian imports. Lean manufacturing is a less heralded, but equally critical component of the company’s cost-cutting plan.
“It’s made us faster and more flexible,” Buck said of lean manufacturing, a business philosophy of identifying and eliminating waste.
Since 2001, when Buck Knives embraced lean manufacturing, the amount of time each knife spends in assembly has dropped from six weeks to less than an hour. The company is nimbler at responding to orders. The faster turnaround time allows Buck Knives to build each knife to order, instead of stockpiling expensive inventory.
“The goal is that you don’t manufacture something until you’ve sold it,” said Phil Duckett, the company’s executive vice president of operations.
Lean manufacturing has already reduced Buck Knives’ costs by more than 20 percent. Savings from the move to Idaho, still undefined, will come on top of that, Buck said.
“I’ve got a gut feeling that we’re going to be able to compete with any country in the world, except for China,” Buck said last week.
About 15 percent of Buck Knives’ lowest cost products are made in China. The issue is sensitive enough for some customers that Buck and his dad, company Chairman Chuck Buck, personally handle complaint calls about country of origin.
The term “lean manufacturing” was coined in 1990, with the publication of James Womack’s book, “The Machine that Changed the World.” The book describes Toyota’s rise in the auto industry.
After World War II, Toyota executives came to the United States to learn from Ford Motor Co. They studied principles of Henry Ford, who wrote extensively about waste, including waste of people’s time, and waste of raw materials and resources.
“They decided that waste was a driving principle of manufacturing,” said Ross Robson, a Utah State University professor, and director of the Shingo Prize for excellence in manufacturing. “They refined the concept beyond what anyone in the world has ever done.”
As a cash-strapped young company, part of Toyota’s focus on waste reduction came from necessity. By the 1980s, however, the automaker’s “just-in-time” manufacturing philosophy was filtering back to the United States. Now, it’s an industry standard.
Robson estimates that 50 percent of U.S. manufacturers refer to themselves as lean operations. Probably less than 5 percent meet the standard set by Toyota, though global competition is forcing companies to constantly reevaluate their operations, he said.
“To be globally competitive, you’ve got to produce the highest quality, at the lowest cost, with 100 percent on-time delivery,” Robson said.
Buck Knives’ dates its existence to 1902, when Hoyt Buck, a 13-year-old blacksmith apprentice in Kansas, started forging knives. In 1963, his son, Al Buck, designed a single-blade knife that locked into place, and folded into a wood handle. The invention revolutionized the knife industry, and established Buck Knives as a recognized brand.
The company, which had nearly $35 million in sales last year, maintains a folksy reputation. CJ Buck and Chuck Buck are barrel-chested men who favor casual Hawaiian shirts and show up at store openings to engrave their autographs on knife blades.
With a long history, and established traditions and culture, Buck Knives’ employees were initially skeptical of lean manufacturing. The 25- and 30-year veterans, in particular, regarded it as the latest “flavor of the month” management initiative.
“The beauty of lean is that it’s not a management incentive,” Duckett said. “Shop employees design their work environment.”
Lean manufacturing is designed around cells, where workers are cross-trained for multiple tasks. The focus is on finishing small batches of product, and flexibility to respond quickly to new orders. Regular “kaizen” meetings, literally “change good” in Japanese, encourage employees to continually evaluate tasks to find new ways to reduce waste.
As a result of the kaizen meetings, Buck Knives scrapped its finished product inspectors. Those employees now do spot checks on the line, catching flaws earlier. The company also cut its inventory of finished product in half.
According to Duckett, a frequent question from the shipping department had been: “Why are you working overtime to make product that we don’t need yet?”
Whiteboards in the new Post Falls factory track hourly production goals, and record how each cell is performing. The plant is producing about 11,000 knives per week, with a goal of hitting 30,000 by mid-June.
Lean manufacturing also became the trigger in Buck Knives’ move to North Idaho. The San Diego factory was 4 ½-acres under one roof. When the company reconfigured its production line, about 40 percent of the building sat empty.
As company officials looked for a smaller facility, they started checking out other states.
“We got more from lean than we ever envisioned,” said CJ Buck
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You're suggesting that Microtech knives are only assembled here from foreign sourced parts?