Made in the USA

No, I'm not missing the point--I was speaking from an ethics standpoint, not a legal one. Talk to a lawyer for legal advice. I'm saying that if you're given reason to suspect that the manufacturer's claim is untrue then you shouldn't be posting the claim. Even better is to stop carrying the product.

That is, of course, a distinction with a difference. I would argue that the obligation in this case is the same, however. Before advertising products as USA Made, the dealer is both ethically and legally obliged to know the truth of the claim. The ease or difficulty of establishing that truth to their satisfaction will certainly vary. I would think it reasonable to trust ZT, for example, without going to Tualitin and auditing them. I would trust the labeling on a Spyderco. A less well known or reliable maker? I'd want some evidence of the truth of their representations before I'd make the claim myself. There is always the simple option of making no claim of origin. When dealing with an outfit like Quartermaster, where there is a ton of information in the public domain that is highly suggestive of misrepresentation, it should be an easy call - don't propagate almost certain lies - make no claim, or don't sell them at all. Either option works for me.

Cheers
 
I understand your (the poster) confusion.

For instance, Ferrum Forge is a U.S. company but they outsource the manufacturing of their Fortis model to WE in China.

i believe all the rest of their line in made in the United States.

You’ll also find similar situations with DPx and other fine companies who make respectable products.

I think it just takes a little research. Ferrum makes no secret of the fact that WE makes their Fortis line and DPx doesn’t hide the fact that Lion Steel makes their HEST folders.

However, I’m sure some companies are not so forthcoming with origin of their knives.

Good post - thanks.
 
From the Late Chuck Buck on this subject. In fact the models made in China which is a small percentage were never produced here.

Chuck Buck: "About 13 percent. Walmart, our largest account, wants price points around $9, $12, $15, and it’s pretty hard for us to do that here. Most of our Chinese-made products go to Walmart."

So in late 2011 87% were US made

They are working at bringing everything back to US.

POST FALLS – About five years ago, CJ Buck picked up a fishing knife made in Taiwan, tested its blade and studied its craftsmanship.

In spite of himself, the fourth-generation knife maker was impressed. Buck is president and chief executive officer of Buck Knives Inc., a privately held family firm whose products enjoy iconic status with hunters and fishermen, a clientele loyal to “Made in USA” labels.

The fillet knife from Taiwan, however, was comparable to in quality to products made at Buck Knives’ San Diego factory. And it sold at a 30 percent discount.

It was truth time for Buck.

“We had a choice to become an importer, or to maintain a manufacturing connection,” Buck said. “The family wanted Buck Knives to continue making most of its product right here in the United States.”

To do that, the company turned to lean manufacturing.

Since Buck Knives’ move to Post Falls last year, most media reports have focused on how Idaho’s lower labor and energy costs will help the company, founded by Buck’s great-grandfather, compete against Asian imports. Lean manufacturing is a less heralded, but equally critical component of the company’s cost-cutting plan.

“It’s made us faster and more flexible,” Buck said of lean manufacturing, a business philosophy of identifying and eliminating waste.

Since 2001, when Buck Knives embraced lean manufacturing, the amount of time each knife spends in assembly has dropped from six weeks to less than an hour. The company is nimbler at responding to orders. The faster turnaround time allows Buck Knives to build each knife to order, instead of stockpiling expensive inventory.

“The goal is that you don’t manufacture something until you’ve sold it,” said Phil Duckett, the company’s executive vice president of operations.

Lean manufacturing has already reduced Buck Knives’ costs by more than 20 percent. Savings from the move to Idaho, still undefined, will come on top of that, Buck said.

“I’ve got a gut feeling that we’re going to be able to compete with any country in the world, except for China,” Buck said last week.

About 15 percent of Buck Knives’ lowest cost products are made in China. The issue is sensitive enough for some customers that Buck and his dad, company Chairman Chuck Buck, personally handle complaint calls about country of origin.

The term “lean manufacturing” was coined in 1990, with the publication of James Womack’s book, “The Machine that Changed the World.” The book describes Toyota’s rise in the auto industry.

After World War II, Toyota executives came to the United States to learn from Ford Motor Co. They studied principles of Henry Ford, who wrote extensively about waste, including waste of people’s time, and waste of raw materials and resources.

“They decided that waste was a driving principle of manufacturing,” said Ross Robson, a Utah State University professor, and director of the Shingo Prize for excellence in manufacturing. “They refined the concept beyond what anyone in the world has ever done.”

As a cash-strapped young company, part of Toyota’s focus on waste reduction came from necessity. By the 1980s, however, the automaker’s “just-in-time” manufacturing philosophy was filtering back to the United States. Now, it’s an industry standard.

Robson estimates that 50 percent of U.S. manufacturers refer to themselves as lean operations. Probably less than 5 percent meet the standard set by Toyota, though global competition is forcing companies to constantly reevaluate their operations, he said.

“To be globally competitive, you’ve got to produce the highest quality, at the lowest cost, with 100 percent on-time delivery,” Robson said.

Buck Knives’ dates its existence to 1902, when Hoyt Buck, a 13-year-old blacksmith apprentice in Kansas, started forging knives. In 1963, his son, Al Buck, designed a single-blade knife that locked into place, and folded into a wood handle. The invention revolutionized the knife industry, and established Buck Knives as a recognized brand.

The company, which had nearly $35 million in sales last year, maintains a folksy reputation. CJ Buck and Chuck Buck are barrel-chested men who favor casual Hawaiian shirts and show up at store openings to engrave their autographs on knife blades.

With a long history, and established traditions and culture, Buck Knives’ employees were initially skeptical of lean manufacturing. The 25- and 30-year veterans, in particular, regarded it as the latest “flavor of the month” management initiative.

“The beauty of lean is that it’s not a management incentive,” Duckett said. “Shop employees design their work environment.”

Lean manufacturing is designed around cells, where workers are cross-trained for multiple tasks. The focus is on finishing small batches of product, and flexibility to respond quickly to new orders. Regular “kaizen” meetings, literally “change good” in Japanese, encourage employees to continually evaluate tasks to find new ways to reduce waste.

As a result of the kaizen meetings, Buck Knives scrapped its finished product inspectors. Those employees now do spot checks on the line, catching flaws earlier. The company also cut its inventory of finished product in half.

According to Duckett, a frequent question from the shipping department had been: “Why are you working overtime to make product that we don’t need yet?”

Whiteboards in the new Post Falls factory track hourly production goals, and record how each cell is performing. The plant is producing about 11,000 knives per week, with a goal of hitting 30,000 by mid-June.

Lean manufacturing also became the trigger in Buck Knives’ move to North Idaho. The San Diego factory was 4 ½-acres under one roof. When the company reconfigured its production line, about 40 percent of the building sat empty.

As company officials looked for a smaller facility, they started checking out other states.

“We got more from lean than we ever envisioned,” said CJ Buck

13% a little higher than I thought, I thought it was hovering around 9-10%. Either way that's besides the point.

I have no real issue with where a product is made as long as if it's quality made. I don't see the China made ones from Buck as being accepable for what they are made out of given Bucks reputation. That's all opinion and usually I would keep quiet about it. But having seen their China made ones in boxes displaying made in USA in the wild a few years ago is where i draw the line and say it's cheapening the brand. When I can't tell someone to just go buy a USA Buck and you be happy for an easy knife recommendation because I can't even trust the packaging is where I have an issue.

I own a few bucks knives, in fact I just bought two and I have one on my belt But I will always verify the model number, and blade stamp for the BOS heat treat symbol if I buy in person. And I don't really recommend it to people even though I want to I don't trust they will be getting what they think they are paying for. The only real exception is other knife enthusiests who would probably know instinctively what to look for and won't need to be told or people I know who will double check before purchasing.
 
Still sounds like typical "midtech" marketing to me. Can i buy a 2,000 piece run, all made by WE on the down low, bring them back here, etch my name onto the knife, and call them midtechs? What about if i anodize them first? Quartermaster and Tim Britton seem to have brought the issue to the fore. What part NEEDS to be done here in America and who is the person who needs to do that specific thing to qualify as a midtech?

I think Tim Britton spearheaded the "midtech" industry and people are just copying his idea. Just because it's from a maker YOU like more doesn't negate the idea of someone, anywhere in the world, making the knife for pennies, bringing those knives to the US, doing some relatively minor work on the knife, and then calling it a midtech from an American company, and then selling them for a ridiculously huge markup. Doesn't make it right.

People are hypocrites. If you accept midtechs from American companies, then you accept midtech "makers" like quartermaster and tim britton.

If you don't like that tim Britton had knives made by some random companies overseas, brought them back here, did some minor work on them, and called them knives, midtech or otherwise, made by an American company, then you shouldn't accept really any midtech company that doesn't divulge exactly who does what on each major part of the knife.

I equate all midtech makers as the same as tim britton unless they divulge who made what. You think rick Hinderer gets a pass that tim britton wouldn't get? You think Olamic gets a pass that tim britton wouldn't get?

If a company came out and said x,y, and z were done by millet or WE or whoever and i personally do a,b, and c, then I'd say they get kudos for being up front and honest. But most midtech "makers" aren't that honest. Ask Rick Hinderer who makes what for him.

Buying a production Hinderer knife is the same as buying a Britton knife. They're guilty of the same coverups. Now look at Massdrop produced knives. They're, at least, up front and honest about who does what. And yet people scream about what massdrop is doing while saying Rick Hinderer is better. BS. Honesty is honesty. Quality is quality. They're not the same.
 
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I am a collector of Southern Grind knives- I have been to their manufacturing facility located in Peachtree City, GA due south of Atlanta. They are a great purchase for the money and turn out a durable/functional/aesthetically pleasing EDC knife. They are one of the top USA manufacturers in my opinion which is backed by the fact the "Case XX" picked SG to co-design and manufacture their 1st tactical knife. I also saw on "DPX" website that Southern Grind is manufacturing a lot of their Urban knives as well.
SG directly supports a camp called Camp Southern Ground that hosts kids summer camps and military family retreats. All in all, they seem to have a strong vision of what "American Made" means for the knife industry in the future. They seem to have captured the American Spirit beautifully within their company. Did I mention their fearless leader and founder is Zac Brown of the Zac Brown Band?
I will be tracking them as a company as I am from the Peachtree City area, and will stay active with updates.
 
From the Late Chuck Buck on this subject. In fact the models made in China which is a small percentage were never produced here.

Chuck Buck: "About 13 percent. Walmart, our largest account, wants price points around $9, $12, $15, and it’s pretty hard for us to do that here. Most of our Chinese-made products go to Walmart."

So in late 2011 87% were US made

They are working at bringing everything back to US.

POST FALLS – About five years ago, CJ Buck picked up a fishing knife made in Taiwan, tested its blade and studied its craftsmanship.

In spite of himself, the fourth-generation knife maker was impressed. Buck is president and chief executive officer of Buck Knives Inc., a privately held family firm whose products enjoy iconic status with hunters and fishermen, a clientele loyal to “Made in USA” labels.

The fillet knife from Taiwan, however, was comparable to in quality to products made at Buck Knives’ San Diego factory. And it sold at a 30 percent discount.

It was truth time for Buck.

“We had a choice to become an importer, or to maintain a manufacturing connection,” Buck said. “The family wanted Buck Knives to continue making most of its product right here in the United States.”

To do that, the company turned to lean manufacturing.

Since Buck Knives’ move to Post Falls last year, most media reports have focused on how Idaho’s lower labor and energy costs will help the company, founded by Buck’s great-grandfather, compete against Asian imports. Lean manufacturing is a less heralded, but equally critical component of the company’s cost-cutting plan.

“It’s made us faster and more flexible,” Buck said of lean manufacturing, a business philosophy of identifying and eliminating waste.

Since 2001, when Buck Knives embraced lean manufacturing, the amount of time each knife spends in assembly has dropped from six weeks to less than an hour. The company is nimbler at responding to orders. The faster turnaround time allows Buck Knives to build each knife to order, instead of stockpiling expensive inventory.

“The goal is that you don’t manufacture something until you’ve sold it,” said Phil Duckett, the company’s executive vice president of operations.

Lean manufacturing has already reduced Buck Knives’ costs by more than 20 percent. Savings from the move to Idaho, still undefined, will come on top of that, Buck said.

“I’ve got a gut feeling that we’re going to be able to compete with any country in the world, except for China,” Buck said last week.

About 15 percent of Buck Knives’ lowest cost products are made in China. The issue is sensitive enough for some customers that Buck and his dad, company Chairman Chuck Buck, personally handle complaint calls about country of origin.

The term “lean manufacturing” was coined in 1990, with the publication of James Womack’s book, “The Machine that Changed the World.” The book describes Toyota’s rise in the auto industry.

After World War II, Toyota executives came to the United States to learn from Ford Motor Co. They studied principles of Henry Ford, who wrote extensively about waste, including waste of people’s time, and waste of raw materials and resources.

“They decided that waste was a driving principle of manufacturing,” said Ross Robson, a Utah State University professor, and director of the Shingo Prize for excellence in manufacturing. “They refined the concept beyond what anyone in the world has ever done.”

As a cash-strapped young company, part of Toyota’s focus on waste reduction came from necessity. By the 1980s, however, the automaker’s “just-in-time” manufacturing philosophy was filtering back to the United States. Now, it’s an industry standard.

Robson estimates that 50 percent of U.S. manufacturers refer to themselves as lean operations. Probably less than 5 percent meet the standard set by Toyota, though global competition is forcing companies to constantly reevaluate their operations, he said.

“To be globally competitive, you’ve got to produce the highest quality, at the lowest cost, with 100 percent on-time delivery,” Robson said.

Buck Knives’ dates its existence to 1902, when Hoyt Buck, a 13-year-old blacksmith apprentice in Kansas, started forging knives. In 1963, his son, Al Buck, designed a single-blade knife that locked into place, and folded into a wood handle. The invention revolutionized the knife industry, and established Buck Knives as a recognized brand.

The company, which had nearly $35 million in sales last year, maintains a folksy reputation. CJ Buck and Chuck Buck are barrel-chested men who favor casual Hawaiian shirts and show up at store openings to engrave their autographs on knife blades.

With a long history, and established traditions and culture, Buck Knives’ employees were initially skeptical of lean manufacturing. The 25- and 30-year veterans, in particular, regarded it as the latest “flavor of the month” management initiative.

“The beauty of lean is that it’s not a management incentive,” Duckett said. “Shop employees design their work environment.”

Lean manufacturing is designed around cells, where workers are cross-trained for multiple tasks. The focus is on finishing small batches of product, and flexibility to respond quickly to new orders. Regular “kaizen” meetings, literally “change good” in Japanese, encourage employees to continually evaluate tasks to find new ways to reduce waste.

As a result of the kaizen meetings, Buck Knives scrapped its finished product inspectors. Those employees now do spot checks on the line, catching flaws earlier. The company also cut its inventory of finished product in half.

According to Duckett, a frequent question from the shipping department had been: “Why are you working overtime to make product that we don’t need yet?”

Whiteboards in the new Post Falls factory track hourly production goals, and record how each cell is performing. The plant is producing about 11,000 knives per week, with a goal of hitting 30,000 by mid-June.

Lean manufacturing also became the trigger in Buck Knives’ move to North Idaho. The San Diego factory was 4 ½-acres under one roof. When the company reconfigured its production line, about 40 percent of the building sat empty.

As company officials looked for a smaller facility, they started checking out other states.

“We got more from lean than we ever envisioned,” said CJ Buck


We have different understandings of the calculus involved with managing and protecting brand identity. IMO, a company that dances with Walmart is dancing with the devil. If Buck wants to sell $10 knives through Walmart, IMO, it would be better if they got distributed as "Ozark Trails" knives with a "Made by Buck" co-branding. That would minimally distance Buck from those knives a bit.

It's really sad to see Buck coerced into competing for the Rough Rider/Taylor-Schrade market. A generation of knife buyers is growing up thinking of Buck as the maker of $10 slip joints. I don't see how that is good for the Buck brand.
 
We have different understandings of the calculus involved with managing and protecting brand identity. IMO, a company that dances with Walmart is dancing with the devil. If Buck wants to sell $10 knives through Walmart, IMO, it would be better if they got distributed as "Ozark Trails" knives with a "Made by Buck" co-branding. That would minimally distance Buck from those knives a bit.

It's really sad to see Buck coerced into competing for the Rough Rider/Taylor-Schrade market. A generation of knife buyers is growing up thinking of Buck as the maker of $10 slip joints. I don't see how that is good for the Buck brand.
Not sure what Buck did to you but you wont let it go. this is Bucks business.
 
We have different understandings of the calculus involved with managing and protecting brand identity. IMO, a company that dances with Walmart is dancing with the devil. If Buck wants to sell $10 knives through Walmart, IMO, it would be better if they got distributed as "Ozark Trails" knives with a "Made by Buck" co-branding. That would minimally distance Buck from those knives a bit.

It's really sad to see Buck coerced into competing for the Rough Rider/Taylor-Schrade market. A generation of knife buyers is growing up thinking of Buck as the maker of $10 slip joints. I don't see how that is good for the Buck brand.
Maybe Buck is just trying to remain in business and competitive in a competitive market?

Jim
 
yep as Makael said.

it's easy to criticize buck from the safety of the sidelines. no skin in the game at all. no risk at all. meanwhile running a business is very hard. lots of risk. especially one in such a fiercely competitive industry. if one feels they can do a better job...... great. gather the capital, take the risk and open shop and do it then.
 
Not sure what Buck did to you but you wont let it go. this is Bucks business.

Makael, I think it's better that we talk about the knives and not each other. But, since you've brought me personally into it, I'll answer your question by telling you 3 things about me that you might know.

1) I've been carrying Buck knives since the early 70s. What Buck did to me was treat me well and caused me to pretty loyal to Buck as a brand. I actually care about the brand.

2) I worked as a product manager for many years (in a different industry) and learned to bin customers into 3 groups. Haters always hate and complain no matter what. I learned to ignore them. Fan-boys (and we had a lot) sing your praises and defend you at every turn. It's nice confirmation but in the end, they told me nothing helpful and I learned to ignore them too. The customers I learned to value the most were rational critics. They were people who are able to both praise and criticism and most importantly, were able to make a rational argument in both cases. These were the customers who made our products better and more compelling.

3) I aspire to be a rational critic of Buck because I give a darn about them as a company. If reading criticism of Buck upsets you enough that you feel compelled to shift the discussion to me instead of the issue, you might be better served to add me to you ignore list.
 
Was curious if their was an event in your life that Buck upset you. Not trying to do any thing to upset you myself. Sorry that it did or seemed that way.

Their is a classification for everyone.
Your quest that knife models should only be built in the country of origin has me curious.
 
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S Someone1 I am a little lost with your rant you are calling Quartermaster a Midtech and comparing them to other Midtechs? The issue with Quartermaster is that they claim everything is USA made. That is the claim people are challenging while majority of Midtechs are not hiding the country of origin and often the knives are sold as Made in China instead of Made in USA. I don't really need to know if it is WE, Reate, or someone else making it in China sure it can be some nice to know information but it isn't really a big factor. I would agree that the legal qualification for labeling Made in USA can sometimes lead to products that are not as Made in USA as people expect but sadly that is due to legal definitions. I don't get too deep into the QM issue to figure how close they may or may not be to the legal requirements but it is possible that they are walking that fine line.
 
But I will always verify the model number, and blade stamp for the BOS heat treat symbol if I buy in person.
Verification of the model number is always good.
Verification of the BOS heat treat symbol?
Not so much.
Buck does not use the BOS heat treat symbol on any knife that has their standard 420HC blade steel, even though the blade(s)does/do have the BOS heat treat.
 
S Someone1 I am a little lost with your rant you are calling Quartermaster a Midtech and comparing them to other Midtechs? The issue with Quartermaster is that they claim everything is USA made. That is the claim people are challenging while majority of Midtechs are not hiding the country of origin and often the knives are sold as Made in China instead of Made in USA. I don't really need to know if it is WE, Reate, or someone else making it in China sure it can be some nice to know information but it isn't really a big factor. I would agree that the legal qualification for labeling Made in USA can sometimes lead to products that are not as Made in USA as people expect but sadly that is due to legal definitions. I don't get too deep into the QM issue to figure how close they may or may not be to the legal requirements but it is possible that they are walking that fine line.


I don't see many midtech makers being up front about where the majority of the knives they attach their name to are built.

I'm still curious about who has to do what to be considered a midtech. Say quartermaster has 100% of their knives built in some sleazy chinese factory. They then bring the knives over, anodize them, sharpen them, add some flair, are they midtech US knives?

Tim Britton did that. A lot of other companies do that. What if the entire knife was made in Malaysia, all components shipped into the US, the blades are heat treated and scale removed here in the US, and then assembled by someone here in the US. Is it then a US midtech?

My point is that the term midtech is BS and it'd be nice to see people stop using it because of the amount of shadiness that can be hidden behind that label. I fault no company for outsourcing production due to labor costs, as long as they're totally forthcoming about who did what. Do you KNOW quartermaster builds knives in china and labels them as made in the US? Could certain parts be made overseas, certain parts be made by some OEM here in the US, and then sold by a US based company and still be considered a midtech? Sure, a lot of midtech makers do exactly that.

The point being, "midtech" is BS. There's nothing special about a midtech. They're production knives that are only as good as the company who produces them. Some may be good, some bad, just like any production piece. Midtech is a nebulous term that most any maker could attach if they really wanted to, yet people speak about midtech knives as being some pinnacle of quality and efficiency. It's just not true. They're production pieces, even if in small batches. They may be good, they may be bad. Whatever. But there's nothing special about a production piece that has been labeled a midtech.
 
As long as we're on the subject... my issue with Knifecenter (and some others) is that they ignore their obligation as the seller to know the truth of their "USA Made" claims. It is an obligation of not only the manufacturer (Quartermaster) but the dealer. If they can't or won't verify the claim, the answer is not to say "it's too much trouble," it's to drop the highly dubious claim from their description.

One thing I noticed recently with Knifecenter is that knives made in Taiwan are frequently labeled as Chinese made, and vice versa. A nitpick to some, but in my mind it's an important distinction, as I'm sure it is to the majority of people in Taiwan who do not believe themselves to be part of China.

Still have to be careful with some Bucks. The vast majority are USA made, and I mean vast majority. But I have encountered their traditional series made in China will h 420j2 steel in the wild with Made in USA boxes which they are not.

Off hand these at the traditional knives which start with 37 like 371 and such. Should also include some of their holiday tins. And I'm not sure if there is anything really besides that.

I have never ever seen a Chinese made Buck knife in a box that marks it as Made in USA. That is a pretty bold accusation against either Buck or the retailer, not that I'm faulting you for it, but if you've got some proof to back it up, I'd love to see that.

The Chinese made slipjoints, as far as I can tell never said Made in USA. At least not as far as I can tell. I've only seen them in blister packs as below, and I have never ever seen a "Made in USA" tag on one.

BUCK-Stockman-371-Knife-420J2-Steel.jpg
 
I can mostly agree with Midtech just being a fancy name for high end production and I admit I am not too familiar with Midtechs to know if there is or isn't a common issue of origin being undisclosed and/or hidden.
 
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