Made in the USA

[22-rimfire]

I would say that they are "made" in China or Taiwan.

That is true for some of their blades. Some are made in Japan as well. SOG does not hide where they make their knives.


I responded and then noticed the many pages. Sorry for breaking the conversation flow. The thread is way way past my point reference.

 

[Jim malone]

If Kershaw makes everything for it's knife inhouse, i believe this.
I can only talk about my experience as senior technical manager for a NYSE Euronext listed medical firm that distributes high technological medical equipment. In every medical equipment we have in our inventory there are parts that are not made by the manufacturer himself because frankly from an return on investment (ROI)viewpoint this is an unwise decision. An inportant part of your operational excellence is looking in cost reduction, the use of Kaizen and implementation of 6 sigma. One of the first things i would do if i was a senior manager at Kershaw was to question the fact why we would need inhouse manufacturing of parts when the parent company has the same equipment operating and the cost of making and operating a screw manufaturing unit inhouse could be scrapped and replaced by using the screws made in the mother factory. The cost of a buying a box of japanese made screws intercompany and sending it would to the US would dramatically reduce manufacturing cost in that area.
We just purchased a USA based branch and the first thing we are going to do is to see where the new aquisition has a double redundancy and were we can work together to reduce unneccesary expenses. If they can make something cheaper then we with the same quality of vise versa the decision is easely made. In my firm the whole "made in the USA or E.C." is a outdated concept only possible in a small scale small run operation. Every product i handle has parts made by subcontractors based in a global enviroment. The whole product is branded made in the USA, or E.C. but in fact it's assembled in the usa, and frankly not even that because they send it disassembled to reduce transport cost.
We changed from a Danish firm to a french firm for a certain product and we found out that 75% of the product was interchangeable because they both used parts from an american company!
But if you tell me that you make everything in house then i believe you. Knowing the Japanese way of thinking i don't know how long you will be able to withstand to their pressure to make cost reduction decisions!

 

[Codger_64]

How did we get so far off topic?

The topic is the preference for knives made by the American cutlery industry. If one does not understand it's history, it is hard to understand it's present condition, and why people are proud of it's heritage and wish to see it continue. I hardly see it as off topic, but I do understand that many people these days don't see history as relevant since most of it occured before they became cognizant adult consumers.

 

[Steel Dragon]

I prefer Made 100% in the USA products as long as it's still a good quality.

Bottom line is people seem to really want "Made in China" knives. But they want it dirt cheap so they can go flip it & make money. They act like it's crap & play it to the bone;but they seem to always come back wanting it cheap.Aggravating as hell,but now it's just plain funny to watch it all play out.

The 227Billion(2009) & 268 Billion(2008) $$ trade deficit with China is a problem obviously.I'm out of work & stuggling like tons of other Americans. How much weight does the knife industry have in the big sceme of things? Probably more than we think!
Also if you add sporting equipment (scopes,clothes,shoes,ammunition,guns,knives,roller blades,etc) it could be pretty big.

I'm guessing Walmart is the biggest buyer of Chinese product?
http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/us-china-trade.htm

 

[Ankerson]

I don't think I would be very wrong if I assumed that you don't know very much about the history of cutlery manufacturing here in the United States.

Most early cutleries were founded by either first or second generation immigrants. In the case of those founded by men who were born here, most of the workers were foriegn born and spoke either no, or very little English at first.

In the case of Camillus, it began with Adolph Kastor and his brothers Sigmund, Nathan and August, all immigrant sons of J. Koester, Wattenheim Germany. They began as importers of cutlery from England, Germany, Austria (Czechoslovakia), etc., but unable to import in sufficient quantities, they bought Sherwood's struggling factory in Camillus and staffed it with cutlery workers from England and Germany, mostly the latter. They built dormatories and houses for them. They brought their families over too. They did learn to speak English and became citizens, passing muster when a Federal agent was inserted during WWI and false rumors spread of sabotage by German speaking workers.

The history of Ulster, Imperial and Colonial, are not much different, nor many other turn of the century cutleries. With the melding of American inventiveness, the English and German (European including Italian) methods of cutlery production, the highly efficient American system was born. Henry Ford toured the cutleries to learn better ways to produce his cars and trucks.

Interesting and I already knew that.

We are talking about today and say the past 15 to 20 years of so when things really started to go sideways.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I do understand that many people these days don't see history as relevant since most of it occured before they became cognizant adult consumers.

If they can read Bladeforums, they can read history books.

 

[Ankerson]

The 227Billion(2009) & 268 Billion(2008) $$ trade deficit with China is a problem obviously.I'm out of work & stuggling like tons of other Americans. How much weight does the knife industry have in the big sceme of things? Probably more than we think!
Also if you add sporting equipment (scopes,clothes,shoes,ammunition,guns,knives,roller blades,etc) it could be pretty big.

I'm guessing Walmart is the biggest buyer of Chinese product?
http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/us-china-trade.htm

At least someone gets my point.

That is exactly why we are having so many problems here now with the Economy and Unemployment, add to that all the outsourcing. :grumpy:

Remember...... Pay Less, Live Better...... :jerkit:

 

[Jim malone]

From an outsider i understand the whole USA made debate. Especially in difficult time people fold back to support their own national identity. This is a basic rule of nature. You will first provide for yourself and your own in time of global crisis. This has nothing to do with rascism, it's a law of nature.
I have the same feeling about the products i buy. If i have a choice i will always go for a domestic manufacturer, but the economical reality makes it difficult to sustain this. If a local made product cost 5 times more then something made in a low cost country, and the quality is acceptable, i will buy it, but i would rather do different.
I am a avid Spyderco collector and if i could i would buy everything made in Golden just to support the US economy as an European. I would rather pay an US based company then send my money to China ( out of personal feelings), but sometimes the added cost is from a return of investment not worth the extra price ( especially if you see what Spyderco knives cost in Europe). So i decide to opt for Spyderco knives made in Taiwan or Japan. I try to stay away from PRC made products as much as possible, but the fact is that the PRC is one giant manufacturing plant and we all buy stuff from there because we can't afford otherwise or there is no substitute availabe.

 

[Ankerson]

From an outsider i understand the whole USA made debate. Especially in difficult time people fold back to support their own national identity. This is a basic rule of nature. You will first provide for yourself and your own in time of global crisis. This has nothing to do with rascism, it's a law of nature.
I have the same feeling about the products i buy. If i have a choice i will always go for a domestic manufacturer, but the economical reality makes it difficult to sustain this. If a local made product cost 5 times more then something made in a low cost country, and the quality is acceptable, i will buy it, but i would rather do different.
I am a avid Spyderco collector and if i could i would buy everything made in Golden just to support the US economy as an European. I would rather pay an US based company then send my money to China ( out of personal feelings), but sometimes the added cost is from a return of investment not worth the extra price ( especially if you see what Spyderco knives cost in Europe). So i decide to opt for Spyderco knives made in Taiwan or Japan. I try to stay away from PRC made products as much as possible, but the fact is that the PRC is one giant manufacturing plant and we all buy stuff from there because we can't afford otherwise or there is no substitute availabe.

You are correct.

The interesting thing that most people don't know is that China now has a middle class, now that is great for the Chinese and I am happy for them.

But

Guess were all those jobs came from to create that middle class in China.....

Yeah that's right.....

They came from the USA by putting countless Millions of people out of work and it continues to get worse.

Pay Less, Live Better.... :jerkit:


We can't blame China though.

It's the Greedy Corps and Politicians that are to blame for this one along with Stupid consumers who are putting nails in our own coffins by buying those cheap products all along.

He have been and are being sold to the lowest bidder.

 

[johned]

This move was a particular political party's actual PLAN. This entire issue is addressed in an issue of Progressive or The American Prospect a few issues ago. Some of it is very dry, maybe 25%, but it is all verifiable at your public library. Just sallie up to the research librarian's desk and state your goal. "Can you show me where I can verify the facts in this article". Now after you find that the facts you check, pick ten at random, are all correct in their entirety you can start to enjoy the articles a little more. And if your blood doesn't boil then you must be a wall street banker.

Read a book with "Rust Belt" in the title....she/he can point some ones out that received national recognition for factually reporting and being readable by the likes of us.

Wallmart, wholly owned by Sam Wall at one time, is our nations largest importer. Also is notorious for low wages and juggling the books so employees are not eligible for food retirement, vacation/sick leave or anything else. Wallmart took off with Nixon. Being importers the Wall clan were really enthusiastic about our rewriting the import tax laws and such.

Regan gave Mc Donalds a 100 million tax break to compensate them for advertising in foreign countries. I know it doesn't even make sense or even sound plausable. This long after the act it should be common knowledge. It isn't but yet it was reported.

This is all very old stuff but most of the things that have created the world we live in started back in that era and you need that history to understand today in the proper context.

Good luck with your quest,


John

 

[Jim malone]

If Kershaw makes everything for it's knife inhouse, i believe this.
I can only talk about my experience as senior technical manager for a NYSE Euronext listed medical firm that distributes high technological medical equipment. In every medical equipment we have in our inventory there are parts that are not made by the manufacturer himself because frankly from an return on investment (ROI)viewpoint this is an unwise decision. An inportant part of your operational excellence is looking in cost reduction, the use of Kaizen and implementation of 6 sigma. One of the first things i would do if i was a senior manager at Kershaw was to question the fact why we would need inhouse manufacturing of parts when the parent company has the same equipment operating and the cost of making and operating a screw manufaturing unit inhouse could be scrapped and replaced by using the screws made in the mother factory. The cost of a making a box of japanese screws and sending it would dramatically reduce manufacturing cost.
We just purchased a USA based branch and the first thing we are going to do is to see where the new aquisition has a double redundancy and were we can work together to reduce unneccesary expenses. If they can make something cheaper then we with the same quality of vise versa the decision is easely made. In my firm believe the whole "made in the USA or E.C." is a outdated concept only possible in a small scale small run operation. Every product i handle has parts made by subcontractors based in a global enviroment. The whole product is branded made in the USA, but in fact it's assembled in the usa, and franly not even that because they send it disassembled to reduce transport cost.
We changed from a Danish firm to a french firm for a certain product and we found out that 75% of the product was interchangeable because they both used parts from an american company!
But if you tell me that you make everything in house then i believe you. Knowing the Japanese i don't know how long you will be able to withstand their pressure to make cost reduction decisions

 

[Ankerson]

This move was a particular political party's actual PLAN. This entire issue is addressed in an issue of Progressive or The American Prospect a few issues ago. Some of it is very dry, maybe 25%, but it is all verifiable at your public library. Just sallie up to the research librarian's desk and state your goal. "Can you show me where I can verify the facts in this article". Now after you find that the facts you check, pick ten at random, are all correct in their entirety you can start to enjoy the articles a little more. And if your blood doesn't boil then you must be a wall street banker.

Read a book with "Rust Belt" in the title....she/he can point some ones out that received national recognition for factually reporting and being readable by the likes of us.

Wallmart, wholly owned by Sam Wall at one time, is our nations largest importer. Also is notorious for low wages and juggling the books so employees are not eligible for food retirement, vacation/sick leave or anything else. Wallmart took off with Nixon. Being importers the Wall clan were really enthusiastic about our rewriting the import tax laws and such.

Regan gave Mc Donalds a 100 million tax break to compensate them for advertising in foreign countries. I know it doesn't even make sense or even sound plausable. This long after the act it should be common knowledge. It isn't but yet it was reported.

This is all very old stuff but most of the things that have created the world we live in started back in that era and you need that history to understand today in the proper context.

Good luck with your quest,


John

All one has to do is go to Carmine, IL so see how bad things can get. I have family there so I can tell you 1st hand how bad it is.

Before Wal Mart the town was doing great with locally owned business etc.

Wal Mart Moved in under cutting everyone and in a short time ALL OF THE LOCAL BUSINESSES SHUT DOWN.

Wal Mart raised the prices because now those people have to travel 30 miles if they don't want to shop at Wal Mart.

This isn't the only time this has happened either by far and it's well documented across the USA.

Remember...

Pay Less, Live Better... :jerkit:

Wal Mart is a Virus and is Killing the USA in so many different ways.

 

[Thomas W]

If Kershaw makes everything for it's knife inhouse, i believe this.

Whew, was worried there for a second.

One of the first things i would do if i was a senior manager at Kershaw was to question the fact why we would need inhouse manufacturing of parts when the parent company has the same equipment operating and the cost of making and operating a screw manufaturing unit inhouse could be scrapped and replaced by using the screws made in the mother factory. The cost of a making a box of japanese screws and sending it would dramatically reduce manufacturing cost.

Jim, First off, boy would I like to be in the meeting when you brought this point up.

Secondly, I don't believe importing parts from Japan would save any dollars. All the monies with knives are tied up in labor, not parts. Neither parts nor labor costs in Japan are anywhere close to China's.

If they can make something cheaper then we with the same quality of vise versa the decision is easely made.

Well there is the rub isn't it Jim. Making, or in this case, importing something cheaper that is of the same quality. I'm unsure I've seen that with imported knife parts, at least ones that could really make a difference to the bottom line.

But if you tell me that you make everything in house then i believe you

Good to know I have credibility with you.

Knowing the Japanese i don't know how long you will be able to withstand their pressure to make cost reduction decisions

There are no pressures Jim, and have you seen the prices of our USA made products? I believe us to ultra price competitive with our all-American made products when compared to brand name imports (of lesser quality no less).

I know you have know idea of the spirit of the Kai organization Jim (you can't get that off the internet), but generalizing an corporation based on race is probably not the wisest way to go through life.

Sometimes as a company, you can over overcome the obstacles around you with shear determination, running lean, being efficient, working hard, having a motivated crew, and managing your business properly in this ever changing world of ours. Of course, a little luck here and there never hurts.

Ankerson, we've taken this thread to Wal-Mart bashing now...really?

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson, we've taken this thread to Wal-Mart bashing now...really?

Thomas,

It's just one of those things that really gets my goat.

Pay Less, Live Better just well I can't even put into words how that makes me feel everytime I hear it......

I also have a real hatred for some American Corps and the way they do business and what they are doing to our country.

But then that's for another thread. :thumbup:

 

[shecky]

Actually Schecky that statement is flawed.

Thomas has a perfectly valid reason not to lie. His reputation and integrity.


To some of us that is actually important and above anything else even money and success. Someday I hope the rest of us understand.

People lie to protect their reputation and integrity all the time. How often do you hear of a gay televangelist coming out of the closet voluntarily, because it's the right thing to do? It kinda doesn't happen. They have a reputation to uphold, and integrity to back up, even if the integrity exists only in the minds of the followers.

The interesting thing about reputation and integrity is that they are earned sometimes by not revealing contrary evidence. This is the exact question posed by the OP. His employer presumably has a good reputation, and their customers have little reason to believe otherwise. The company may be good enough to it's customers that they have lots of good will invested, and would not believe an outsider's story about mislabled goods, even if it were true.

And before all you guys get your knickers in a twist again, keep this in mind. This point isn't about Thomas W or Kerhsaw. I used Thomas W and Kershaw as an example because kerhsawguy did. If he'd said the same thing about Buck, or Spyderco, etc, the point would remain the same. The fact is that you cannot trust someone's integrity when that integrity is based on their own declaration. You can only trust what you can observe and hope for the best.

 

[upnorth77]

It means that with ZT and Kershaw.
Not Kershaw & ZT
We have 4 dedicated screw machines, and produce all our pivots, studs, screws, etc, right here in Tualatin Oregon.
I do

Thanks Thomas, as a big Kershaw fan, I feel good about your post!

 

[2brothers]

People lie to protect their reputation and integrity all the time. How often do you hear of a gay televangelist coming out of the closet voluntarily, because it's the right thing to do? It kinda doesn't happen. They have a reputation to uphold, and integrity to back up, even if the integrity exists only in the minds of the followers.

The interesting thing about reputation and integrity is that they are earned sometimes by not revealing contrary evidence. This is the exact question posed by the OP. His employer presumably has a good reputation, and their customers have little reason to believe otherwise. The company may be good enough to it's customers that they have lots of good will invested, and would not believe an outsider's story about mislabled goods, even if it were true.

And before all you guys get your knickers in a twist again, keep this in mind. This point isn't about Thomas W or Kerhsaw. I used Thomas W and Kershaw as an example because kerhsawguy did. If he'd said the same thing about Buck, or Spyderco, etc, the point would remain the same. The fact is that you cannot trust someone's integrity when that integrity is based on their own declaration. You can only trust what you can observe and hope for the best.

You are the only person in this thread that doesn't have any integrity and everyone knows it.


esfo

 

[Thomas W]

The fact is that you cannot trust someone's integrity when that integrity is based on their own declaration. You can only trust what you can observe and hope for the best.

There's always going to have to be a level of trust with consumers/brands, but going around spewing conspiracy theory's based on dopey websites, and acting like you're "in the know" about some brands pulling one over on everyone is unacceptable on a public forum of this type.

If Kershaw was in fact outsourcing foreign parts on USA made blades (and not claiming as such), I would certainly not be engaging in it, on the contrary, I'd be hoping this thread into obscurity, and praying another like it never came up. Perhaps that is too much common sense for some to grasp?

I know it's real easy to bring giant corporations, countries, and governments into these types of discussions, but this is the knife industry here people. A very small cottage industry. A little perspective goes a long way.

 

[Ankerson]

There's always going to have to be a level of trust with consumers/brands, but going around spewing conspiracy theory's based on dopey websites, and acting like you're "in the know" about some brands pulling one over on everyone is unacceptable on a public forum of this type.

If Kershaw was in fact outsourcing foreign parts on USA made blades, I would certainly not be engaging in it, on the contrary, I'd be hoping this thread into obscurity, and praying another like it never came up. Perhaps that is too much common sense for some to grasp?

I know it's real easy to bring giant corporations, countries, and governments to these types of discussions, but this is the knife industry here people. A very small cottage industry. A little perspective goes a long way.

Yep.

The Knife industry is a very small Nick market here in the USA. :thumbup:

Reputation means everything.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Why we ever allow threads like this in a knife discussion forum, I don't know. All around the fringe of politics, and can't even keep that focused. This one has had it.