Made my first knife... Now what?

J

jamesbeat

Joined
Jul 26, 2009
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314
I made my first knife over the last few days.
I made it from an old file (I know, I know... :D)

First, some terrible photos:

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I annealed the file in a fire at a relative's house over labor day weekend, and then set to it with my bench grinder and files (I don't have a belt grinder)
I haven't quite finished it yet, (it needs a lot more sanding) but the problem of heat treating is now on the horizon.

Now, I have read all of the other 'I want to make a knife from a file' threads, and the general consensus is that it is better to buy a known steel rather than mess around with files, as they are mystery steel.
I think that this is good advice, but I decided to use the file anyway simply because I had it to hand.
I'm not completely stupid though, and I did do some tests.
I tried grinding it, and I got nice deep orange bushy sparks, which indicate high carbon steel.
I heated the tang past critical, and after letting it cool slowly, was able to bend it with pliers easily and bite into it with a file.
I then heated the tang past critical, quenched it, and when I tried pliers again, it snapped like glass, and a file skated over the surface.

So, I have no doubt that my knife is made from some kind of high carbon steel, not case hardened mild steel. I suspect something along the lines of W1, because W2 is air hardening and I don't think I could have annealed it with my rudimentary technique.

The problem is that I don't have a forge, or access to a forge. In fact, I don't even have access to the fire that I used to anneal it (my relative's house is a long way away)
I tried using my propane torch, not really expecting it to work, and sure enough I couldn't get it hot enough.
I looked into the one brick forge, but my wife has vetoed it because she's scared that I will set fire to the apartment :D

I thought about sending it away for heat treatment, but I doubt any professional heat treaters will touch an unknown steel.

So, armed only with a propane torch, with no back yard, is there any expedient way I can get this blade hot enough to harden it?


P.S. I promise that I will use known steel stock for all future knives :D
 
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Yeah, send it to me and I'll heat treat it as W1 in my Evenheat oven and quench it in Park's 50.

BTW, W2 is the same as W1, only with a little bit of Vanadium. ;) Not air hardening.
 
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Great! How much do you charge?
I'll need a few days to fine tune the bevels etc while it's soft. As you can probably tell, there are still some pretty deep file marks left to get rid of.
since this is my very first knife and I don't really know what I'm doing, is there anything glaringly wrong with it that I should correct before HT?

I read that the Vanadium content made W2 air hardening, indeed many of the file knife naysayers advised people that this is a good reason not to use a file as it's almost impossible to anneal W2.
Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read on the internet :D
 
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Have you tried MAPP gas? It's right beside the propane bottles. It gets a lot hotter. A "swirl" burner opens up the size of the hot spot too.
 
I did think of MAPP, but I didn't want to try it unless I knew for sure that it would work.
My torch is only rated for propane (well, that's the only gas the instructions mention anyway) and I didn't want to spring for a new torch only to find that it didn't do the job.

I'm hopefully going to talk my wife into not killing me if I make a one-brick forge, as I've really enjoyed my first knifemaking experience. I've already thought of a few other knives I'd like to make (and so it begins... :D)

For this first knife though, Danbo's offer is looking like the sanest option.
I'd hate for my first knife to be a failure (cracking, warping etc) and sending it to someone with the proper equipment and experience gives me the best chance of ending up with a knife I can actually use.

Having said that, if MAPP will get hot enough to heat treat a small blade (~2-3" or so) I'd love to hear about it, because that could save me the trouble of making a forge.
Anyone used MAPP successfully on a small blade?
 
Looks like a grippy handle.
I like file knives.
Personaly I'd have the bevel go up higher towards the spine.
Try draw filing.
I like to finish off with a triangular single cut file
 
How about I charge you whatever it'll cost me to mail it back to ya? ;)

Now, there's no guarantee it won't warp or crack with me heat treating it, either. But, I'd like to think the odds are a lot higher against it, if I heat it up evenly to 1475 or so(or, whatever the specs call for on W1), let it soak for 5 minutes and full quench it into prewarmed Parks 50, as compared to using a torch.
 
jamesbeat said:
I read that the Vanadium content made W2 air hardening, indeed many of the file knife naysayers advised people that this is a good reason not to use a file as it's almost impossible to anneal W2.
Click to expand...

In short, that's nonsense.

You already know the pitfalls of using old files, but it seems to me that you've done some homework and have a pretty good grasp of what you're working with. I think that's a good general-purpose knife design. If you want scales on it, drill now, before it's rehardened.

Sincerely, if I were you, I would take the bevels higher to help it cut/slice better, smooth it out and take advantage of DanBo's HT offer. :thumbup:
 
I was going to put scales on it, but once I draw-filed the surface and knocked the points off, I loved the way the handle felt so I decided to keep it that way.
I'm going to neaten up the boudaries between the checkered surface and the smooth areas to improve the appearance.

I was going for a Scandi-esque grind, but I think you guys are right that I should take the bevels up higher, as the stock is quite thick and the angle is too steep.

Danbo, that's very generous of you and I'll gladly accept your offer once I have modified the bevels and smoothed it up some more.
I know that the possibility exists that my knife will still go *ping* but it's a lot less likely to happen with your equipment. I'm fully aware of the risks :)
 
One more question before I attack it with the file again; how high should I go with the bevels?
Looking at knives I already have, it seems that for blades of roughly these dimensions, the centerline should be about halfway up the blade, but all of my knives are hollow ground.

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, because I know blade geometry is a complex subject, but what would you guys do to this knife?
 
Good on Danbo for doing your HT


You've already been told, but there is a system to the naming of the steels - mostly.

W steels, water hardening, but we use fast oils for thin sections like knives
O steels, oil hardening
A steels, air hardening
S steels - shock resistant
D steels - made for dies like stamping dies.
 
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Just a suggestion, regarding the handle situation. Even if you like the way it feels now, with no handles, I would still drill a 1/4" hole towards the front of the handle, in case you want to wrap it or handle it in the future. If that file really is all good old high carbon steel, it's gonna be harder than a woodpecker's lips, once I quench it. Ain't gonna be no drilling it later, unless you use a carbide bit.

Also, I would draw file it higher, too. ;)
 
12345678910 said:
Good on Danbo for doing your HT


You've already been told, but there is a system to the naming of the steels - mostly.

W steels, water hardening, but we use fast oils for thin sections like knives
O steels, oil hardening
A steels, air hardening
S steels - shock resistant
D steels - made for dies like stamping dies.
Click to expand...

You know, I did actually know about the O and the W, so I should have realised that W2 wasn't an air hardening steel!
I didn't know the others though, that's interesting. D2 is one of my favorite steels, but I had no idea it was originally intended as a steel for diemaking!

Danbo, I have been back and forth on whether to drill for scales.
If I do decide to do it, I'll have to drill two holes, because the area with the lanyard hole is rebated where I filed away the file teeth.
I'll agonize about it some more and come to a decision before I send it to you.
 
Good work for a first knife. I'd take the bevel to somewhere closer to the mid point so you have better slicing ability. A knife this size is going to be a good slicer, but not often used for splitting firewood or the like.

As for holes, I don't think it would bad at all if you drilled a series of holes down the length of the handle to match the lanyard hole. Heck, you could even drill a pretty pattern of holes like a cruciform or star, with two of the holes conveniently placed for future rivet holes if you decide to go that route. It wouldn't necessarily add to the grip, but it would look good. I could even see filling the holes in temporarily with copper wire peened in them. That would actually look kind of sexy!

Drilling it after hardening would be an absolute bear of a job unless you annealed the tang with your torch.... which is an option.
 
Thanks, I'm really having fun making it. I wish I had the space and spare cash for a belt grinder, because I'm definitely going to be making more knives.
It's not much fun using a file, especially without a vise!
Maybe I'll stop collecting knives and use the money I would have spent on buying tools to make knives (although I supose I'd still be collecting them in that case :D).

I have taken one bevel up to just over halfway, and it looks like I'm going to get a much more useful angle now.
It has also improved the looks of the knife a great deal.

I'll do more tomorrow if I get the chance, and I will try to upload photos.
 
I do think the tang/handle looks cool the way you have it, but I also agree that another hole or two on each end wouldn't hurt, in case you decide to cord-wrap it. Totally optional at this point... let's focus on the blade geometry.

jamesbeat said:
Looking at knives I already have, it seems that for blades of roughly these dimensions, the centerline should be about halfway up the blade, but all of my knives are hollow ground.
Click to expand...

It's not terribly helpful to match the grind-height of a hollow-ground blade with a sabre-ground one like yours. The hollow-ground one will be much thinner at the edge if the bevel heights are the same.

How thick is that stock? The thicker it is, the higher a flat bevel must be to achieve a keen blade. If you leave it as is, it honestly won't cut very well unless the stock is very thin. Personally, I would make it full-flat right up to the spine, for maximum slicing/cutting ability... but I'm just biased that way.
 
I have made the bevels higher now.

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While I agree that a full flat grind would be the best type for this blade (thickness is about 1/8") I have decided to stop here.
The reason I stopped instead of going for a full flat grind is that my lines started to go wobbly and the edge out of true.
I could have done it more accurately if I had a vise, (don't worry, I'll be getting one asap) but doing it by hand has its limitations, and I think I found them!

I put the knife into my Lansky-type sharpener to get an idea of the angles, and it looks like the bevel that I have will be just fine. It's not going to be a fine slicer, but I always have a slipjoint on me for slicing duties anyway.
The new bevel is a million times better than the original one, and I think it's going to be a good general purpose blade.

I neatened up the borders of the checkered areas and smoothed things up a little.
I have yet to file the area where the handle meets the ricasso, because for some reason I can't find my needle files, but other than that I think I'm pretty much done.

Again, please excuse the terrible photos, it's raining intermittently here on Long Island so I'm using crappy indoor lighting.
The knife actually looks much better than this in real life, the camera has exaggerated the file marks and sanding lines. I figured there's no point in finishing it further until after HT.


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I take my hat off for you sir, that is a fine looking knife (in progress)
I realy like how you took the effort to make the flats flat and removed the file teeth.
Rounding the handle/ricasso would finnish it off.
A chain saw file could do that as well.
 
Why thank you :)

I'd say that, using my rudimentary tools, getting rid of the teeth and making everything flat and true was the hardest part.
I hope that I have demonstrated to budding knifemakers that it is possible (though very time consuming) to make a knife using no fancy equipment.
I would however stress that using a file as raw material really sucks.
I'd say that 50% of the work that I put into this knife would have been avoided if I had just used a piece of steel, and, despite being in Danbo's capable hands, the heat treat is still going to be a crap shoot at best, and there is a high risk of failure.
Having said that, I love the checkered handle, and I'm still happy I did it this way.
However, although I'm definitely going to be making more knives, I won't be using files as raw material ever again.

Just to be clear, I made this knife using only a bench grinder, a bastard file, and sandpaper (although I need to finish that one area with a needle file).

I hope that my little knife will encourage someone else to give it a go; I've been meaning to make a knife for many years, and I'm glad that I decided to do it despite not really having the right tools.

I couldn't have done it without the help of a few books that I read, but much more importantly, this forum.
I managed to get the whole way through making this knife without needing to ask any questions (apart from the one above) because the information is all here on the forums, freely available to anyone who is prepared to search for it.
In fact, if I'd been able to build a small forge, I could have completed my knife just by using the info available here.

It's nice to know that there are experienced people ready to jump in and lend a hand when you get stuck though!

If I can hunt down my needle files, I should get it finished today, and then it will be off to Danbo!
 
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