Makers that have their heat treat down to a science

noob93 - Please limit the use of profanity to the areas of BFC where profanity is acceptable. This is not one of those areas.
 
Someone's already mentioned Buck's BOS treatment, which is excellent. I'm going to add that the Gerber 420HC treatment they are currently using is also top notch. Over the past year and half I have purchased a Gerber Gator, Strongarm, and Prodigy and all three had more consistent factory grinds and held an edge longer compared to the Buck knives I've purchased over the year. I also added a Premium Gator (S30V) to my collection which is phenomenal. It was used extensively for a 2 week camp trip and never had to be resharpened during that time.
 
Alan Davis is a wizard. His elmax is amazing! I am posting this because he is too busy filling ordes to come on this thread and brag about his own work......:rolleyes:

Russ
 
I will add Phil Wilson. He may be more in the legendary realm now.

Gonna keep my eyes out for an Alan Davis now, mycough.
 
From what I have been told, Bob Kramer may have been one of the guys who "invented" the lower austenizing temperature heat treatment that many now use for 52100, especially for kitchen knives.
 
mete said:
Survive!Knives has been working on CPM 3V to get an ideal HT.

Remember that steelmakers suggestions for HT are for their typical customer's needs !!! So if the typical customer uses 1" thick material that's the HT the company gives . We knife people come along with 1/8" blades and we might do better with a different HT . So start with the company's HT then do a bit of experimenting to optimize for your knife !!
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Absolutely I have been watching survive for a while and would not hesitate to purchase from them. I think what you said about the standard hr procedure being for thicker metal is spot on and that's why it's so interesting to see what the makers come up with. Especially guys that haven't blown up yet and have thousands to spend perfecting their hr so instead they have to sacrifice to get it where they need it.
 
foofie said:
I will add Phil Wilson. He may be more in the legendary realm now.

Gonna keep my eyes out for an Alan Davis now, mycough.
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Yes it seems anything he touches turns out legendary I have not had the chance to even hold one of his knives but it's on my list for sure
 
Cobalt said:
Nice touchy feally thread. So pretty much no one has bad HT, lol.
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I chuckled at this. Just one thing to clarify for the OP. There are lots of manufacturers who do a really good job on heat treat (and have been listed). I don't want to diminish their hard work and dedication. But a custom maker who is well attuned to heat treat (and there are many - yay!!) will take most steels up quite a few notches. This is in reference to heat treat, but grind geometry also factors in here as well. I know it is not an apples to apple comparison, but the original post was a bit vague on whether you are looking more for high end manufacturers or true custom.
 
I will add Ed fowler with 52100 I have.no experience with.
Bob Dozer with D2 I have experience
 
Cobalt said:
Nice touchy feally thread. So pretty much no one has bad HT, lol.
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The thing I wonder is, if things are bad, how do you know it has anything to do with the heat-treat?

Is it micro-folds? Is it snapping without bending? Is it micro-chipping? Is it breaking from impact? Is it poor edge-holding?

It seems to me unclean steel or a poor steel making process can be just as culpable...

One thing I will make a statement about is that factory knives are way more consistent and reliable than customs costing thousands...

I've yet to notice, personally, grossly inadequate blade steel performance from a cheap, or expensive, factory knife: Quite the contrary... Usually their downfall is the sheath or handle or anything non-blade related...

Customs have been the exact opposite for me...: Terrible steel performance is quite common, even getting close or well over one 1k, I would say 50/50, and I've never seen CPM steels do well... I also only buy from well-established custom makers so...

That being said, the good customs have been equal or slightly better in edge-holding than the factory knives.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
The thing I wonder is, if things are bad, how do you know it has anything to do with the heat-treat?

Is it micro-folds? Is it snapping without bending? Is it micro-chipping? Is it breaking from impact? Is it poor edge-holding?

It seems to me unclean steel or a poor steel making process can be just as culpable...

One thing I will make a statement about is that factory knives are way more consistent and reliable than customs costing thousands...

I've yet to notice, personally, grossly inadequate blade steel performance from a cheap, or expensive, factory knife: Quite the contrary... Usually their downfall is the sheath or handle or anything non-blade related...

Customs have been the exact opposite for me...: Terrible steel performance is quite common, even getting close or well over one 1k, I would say 50/50, and I've never seen CPM steels do well... I also only buy from well-established custom makers so...

That being said, the good customs have been equal or slightly better in edge-holding than the factory knives.

Gaston
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You can look at a fracture and tell if it is the HT, it will be pretty obvious. And I disagree that high production factories are better than custom.
 
Who ever heat treats the vg-10 &aus 8 on Al Mar knives.
Hittachi knives in all steels as well as all the Fallkniven' s produces
 
jfk1110 said:
Who ever heat treats the vg-10 &aus 8 on Al Mar knives.
Hittachi knives in all steels as well as all the Fallkniven' s produces
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+1 on what I have seen of the old Aus-6 Al Mars... They are really at the very top of anything I have tried...


Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
One thing I will make a statement about is that factory knives are way more consistent and reliable than customs costing thousands...
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Gaston444 said:
I also only buy from well-established custom makers so...

That being said, the good customs have been equal or slightly better in edge-holding than the factory knives.
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Do you even read the things you write, or do you just type random sentences and hope that they make sense?
 
What causes poor heat treatment? Is it because the companies are trying to crank out as many as possible in a short amount of time? Are they just flat out trying to scam consumers? are they simply idiots? I've heard of plenty of well respected production brands being praised 40 or 50 years ago even as recent as 30 or 20 years ago and now they mysteriously forgot how to heat treat?
 
In my opinion (that is all it is) poor heat treatment is when you load an oven up with way to many blades and one central thermocouple measures the heat. There is a sweet spot where the blades get the good HT, but there are areas in the oven that will not, and when you add to that tons of blades spaced very closely it is almost impossible to know if you have properly HT'd blade. A custom knife maker who HT's his own blades or sends small batches to be done should have more success with HT than a company doing mass production.

I would certainly prefer a custom over mass production and the makers listed below are some of the ones who I trust to have excellent HT. Companies like GSO are successful, because they have specialized HT for their knives and it is done by a heat treater for their spec. ESEE does the same thing. The other company not mentioned is Fehrman. They have their own specialized HT. Another person not mentioned is Nathan Carothers and the great things he is doing with 3V. I think some of the ideas of his HT came from Roman Landes, someone who has provided advice on HT to knife makers. Jerry Busse has forgotten more about heat treating than most people know. Yet he has not been mentioned once in this thread. He was one of the first if not THE first to use cryo. His HT process is in house and he controls it all. Here is an excerpt of what some old ramblings:

Jerry Busse on his heat treat process:

"Busse has been doing cryo since the early 1980's. Back then it was a very primitive process involving an old cooler, dry ice and about a gallon of acetone. Process: pack the blades in dry ice, pour the acetone over the ice to speed the evaporation process, and hit somewhere around the -190 degree mark. Do a normalizing temper (approx. 350 - 450) and voila! Prehistoric Cryo!

In the late eighties we began the employment of a deep cryo treatment (-300/320 degrees) which was done in a dry, controlled, atmosphere. This process allows us to take our blades down to temp. over the course of 10 hours hold them at temp. (-300 degrees) for approx 50 hours, and then bring them back up to room temp. over the course of the next 10 hours at which point they receive 3 more, individualized, oven tempers. This is the same process that we employ to this day.

Some makers are out there just plunging their blades into liquid nitrogen which can shock the steel so dramatically that microscopic cracks and fissures can form that could cause massive blade failure in the field under heavy and/or light use. That is why it is crucial that the blades be cooled slowly and brought back to room temperature slowly and then normalized with a few oven tempers for stress relief.

Of course there are also some makers that I know of who claim to employ cryogenics because they stick their knives in the freezer over night. Scary! Alway ask the maker to give as much detail of his cryo process as possible.

Knowledge is power! Arm yourself!

Yours in Nuclear Cryogenics,"

--Jerry Busse
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