Makeshift Anvil, File Questions

Willie71 said:
If you had the annealed steel it isn't that different from 1084. With the steel this thin, there isn't much point in forging. You could use abrasives or diamond files. Glue some good course paper (Start with 36 grit) on a flat block and get to work! It'll be a pain but you'll get there. The 15N20 is a great steel choice, and maybe someone close to you will anneal it for you. I would offer to, buy you could buy a new bar of 1084 for the same amount as the shipping to and from me. I heat treat 15n20 pre grinding, with the profile cut out. It helps prevent warping.
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Thanks for the advice. So just getting it up to forging temps wouldn't solve my problem then.

I ordered the stock 9 days ago, and my order status is still in processing. Maybe I'll call Aldo tomorrow and ask if he could change the order to 1084, or see if I can get a thicker annealed version.

I think I'll plan on getting one aggressive file and try to do the rest with sand paper. Also, thanks for the offer.
 
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SteveGallo said:
Would cast iron still be a problem even with that steel block face welded to them? I'd like to make a good solid post anvil, but free is always better than relatively cheap.
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That would be a big PITA to weld a steel block to Cast Iron... Cast Iron, due to the high amount of carbon in it's composition doesn't behave like steel would when welded. It distorts very little if at all, while steel can deal with elongation and shrinkage, cast iron can't... You can weld it to steel with Nick, but a pound of Nickel rod these days hurts the piggy bank, and it wouldn't last past the third hammer blow... If we're talking dirt cheap anvil, a sledge hammer head will suffice... That or a piece of Granite; if the vikings did it, so can you... both would work better than the Cast Iron.


Do you have a grinder to spark test the hand weights... I'm just assuming they're Cast Iron... The other weight is definitely Cast Iron...
 
SteveGallo said:
Thanks for the advice. So just getting it up to forging temps wouldn't solve my problem then.

I ordered the stock 9 days ago, and my order status is still in processing. Maybe I'll call Aldo tomorrow and ask if he could change the order to 1084, or see if I can get a thicker annealed version.

I think I'll plan on getting one aggressive file and try to do the rest with sand paper. Also, thanks for the offer.
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If you could slow the cooling, getting it to forging temp could help. The problem is it air hardens. When I tried it, the steel was harder than before I started lol! You would need to do a three stage grain refinement cycle and that would be difficult without a pyrometer.
 
SinePari said:
That would be a big PITA to weld a steel block to Cast Iron... Cast Iron, due to the high amount of carbon in it's composition doesn't behave like steel would when welded. It distorts very little if at all, while steel can deal with elongation and shrinkage, cast iron can't... You can weld it to steel with Nick, but a pound of Nickel rod these days hurts the piggy bank, and it wouldn't last past the third hammer blow... If we're talking dirt cheap anvil, a sledge hammer head will suffice... That or a piece of Granite; if the vikings did it, so can you... both would work better than the Cast Iron.


Do you have a grinder to spark test the hand weights... I'm just assuming they're Cast Iron... The other weight is definitely Cast Iron...
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I see...I don't know much about welding. Would have probably gotten the same explanation when I showed up at my friend's looking for him to weld those. I'm 98% sure the DB's are cast iron - steel is rare and you pay a lot for it in the strength world.

Willie...I'd probably need something like vermiculite to pull that off, right? I guess that's a possibility, but I think I'm biting off more than I can chew with hardened 15N20. We'll see what Aldo says if I can call him later.

What I do have is about 3 feet of H beam that I could weld that plate onto, but I know H beam isn't ideal. I think I'll have to start scouring the junkyards.

Thanks for all the help so far.
 
Here you go, this is mine. It works great, not as good as a real anvil, but damn good nonetheless. Nice rebound, quiet, moves metal like there's no tomorrow, and heavy as hell, there's a lot of mass under that head. It has a work area that's a tad small, but it helps with hammer control and accuracy. It weighs between 175lbs and 195lbs. The 195lbs in the thread is before the quickrete had fully cured and was still a little wet.
 
Just curious, why do you need to forge your first knife? Forging a knife requires both forging and stock removal, and you are using very thin stock already.
 
aarongb said:
Just curious, why do you need to forge your first knife? Forging a knife requires both forging and stock removal, and you are using very thin stock already.
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I don't, I didn't realize going into it that the thinness would make forging unnecessary. That being said, I want to get into knife making A) so I can have good knives to use in my kitchen and B) because of the appeal of hammering steel. Maybe that's silly but it is what it is haha.

At this point I'm more worried about dealing with the 15N20 hardness - if I can't work with the metal it makes everything else moot :thumbdn:

Thanks for the example broomhead. I think I need to make some trips to scrapyards at this point and forget the weights.
 
I think the best thing to do is what Willie suggested...and what I did on my last petty knife. I hardened the blade first, then used wet/dry paper against a granite background, and cut the bevels by hand. I don't think you need to do any forging at all for this project. Cutting bevels by hand post heat treat with 50 or 60 grit paper goes faster than you think. Just get the paper stationary, and go to town. Your first pass should be around a 45 degree angle, not quite touching your edge scribe line (leave some meat there for finer grits). Work your way up to the spine. (If you can buy a cheapo 4x36 belt sander at the borg store.....and use the 36 grit ceramic belt....you can use that quite well to remove the majority of the stock, without overheating. You WILL have to switch to the hand sanding route after establishing the bevels with 36 grit....as those machines run way too fast for anything finer grit, really, and you'll overheat the edge for sure.)
 
Find a hardwood stump and sink half of that hardened steel right into the center... You'll have .75" x 4" of a makeshift substitute... Broomhead clued you into what you really need to be concerned about; mass under hammer.....
 
Would brazing be more workable than welding steel to cast Iron? I have been wondering about that myself.
 
samuraistuart said:
I think the best thing to do is what Willie suggested...and what I did on my last petty knife. I hardened the blade first, then used wet/dry paper against a granite background, and cut the bevels by hand. I don't think you need to do any forging at all for this project. Cutting bevels by hand post heat treat with 50 or 60 grit paper goes faster than you think. Just get the paper stationary, and go to town. Your first pass should be around a 45 degree angle, not quite touching your edge scribe line (leave some meat there for finer grits). Work your way up to the spine. (If you can buy a cheapo 4x36 belt sander at the borg store.....and use the 36 grit ceramic belt....you can use that quite well to remove the majority of the stock, without overheating. You WILL have to switch to the hand sanding route after establishing the bevels with 36 grit....as those machines run way too fast for anything finer grit, really, and you'll overheat the edge for sure.)
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Start with the paring knife first. :) :thumbup: :cool:
 
A good selection of files is important, and you can make a knife with nothing but a file - no forging needed.

Forging a blade doesn't make it any better that one made by stock-removal. Making a super-thin kitchen knife by forging it down.... well, that's a tall order for someone with no experience.

Anvils in the third world are very rudimentary compared to what we're familiar with. Do a search for stump anvils or post anvils and see what folks are using. For making knives, you do not need anything resembling a london-pattern anvil. A 20# sledgehammer will suffice just fine.
 
Vaughn is right, the act of forging doesn't necessarily make the knife better, but if you really want to forge I think that's terrific.
This is my starter anvil:



It's a piece of rock-crusher jaw. I don't know the exact composition but it weighs about 135# and rebounds the hammer like crazy. It was given to me gratis by the local scrapper after some chatting. Build a network in your area, when you're working on the cheap it pays to have friends.
 
Just got off the phone with Aldo. Super nice guy, very helpful, willing to take some time to give me some tips.

Ended up changing the order to 1084; agreed that 15N20 would be a bit too much starting out, plus the slightly thicker stock will give me less chance of ruining things on a first effort (and give me an excuse to use the forge).

I'm off to the junkyard today for anvil sourcing. Thanks for the recommendations, I know better what to look for now.
 
Your hardened steel plate on top of your H beam set vertically should work well. You will need some sort of base to keep it upright. Have your friend weld the H beam to the plate. Then weld the H beam to the base. You will probably need to cut and square your H beam to get it at the right height. Smiths I have talked with indicated for the delicate work of making knives you will want it set a little higher to save wear and tear on your back. Your base needs to be fairly large. You don't want to knock your anvil over. A paper 6" concrete form should fit over everything. Or you could get those hollow concrete blocks instead. Get a bag of high strength concrete and some binding agent to mix with it. Fill the hole with the concrete and let it set for several days to cure well. Now this anvil will probably weigh quite a bit so you might cast the concrete near where you will be using it. Now you need to get some tongs, a cross peen and a straight peen hammer.
 
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