Making a knife out of a file

FOG2

FOG2

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I assume one has to take the hardness out of the file prior to grinding.
How is this done ?
Thanks,and sorry for the Newbie question
 
Heat the file to non magnetic and bury it in sand, ash, vermiculite to let it cool slowly. That will anneal the file
 
Isn't there some question as to what the typical file is made of? I've heard W2, W1, O1 and a bunch of others.

For annealing, since I use a charcoal fire, how would this be to anneal- get it up to nonmagnetic, then just bury it in the coals and let the fire die out on its own?
 
As long as it cools slowly and doesn't get so hot in the live coals you bury it in that overheats it would be fine. I would only use a Nickelson file or I think a Simmons as I know they are good steel all the way through. The HT for 1095, W1 and W2 are all real close to the same. 1500f and a very fast oil or suck it up use brine or water and hope the tinks don't get you. 01 is a different story. Needs some soak time really.
 
You don't have to anneal the file before grinding, but most people do. It is difficult to grind hardened steel without generating a lot of heat, which then ruins the temper of the file, requiring it to be re-heat treated anyway. If you're going to re heat treat it anyway, you may as well work it in the softened state before rehardening. At least that is the standard train of thought.

Try not to drastically overheat any one spot on the steel because the steel grain will grow, reducing the toughness of the final blade when you're all done unless you undertake additional heat treat steps to reduce grain size. Best to just avoid the problem.. It it easy to overheat the tip for example.

It is beneficial to heat the steel to just under non-magnetic (dull red) a few times. It will be easier to work (carbide in balls instead of sheets), and it can improve the subsequent hardening heat treat. You may just do that instead of the long slow cool in vermiculite, which can have a tendency to put carbide into grain boundaries, which you don't want.

Done well, a knife made from a file will outperform anything you're likely to find at wall mart etc.
 
Well people use nicholson files, I believe they are w2 but I don't remember. the annealing works best the longer the cool down takes, It should be too hot to touch for 8-10hrs.
 
I'm new also, but I am working on some file knives right now. Let me tell you a few things I observed, although I don't have the experience to claim that my observations are universally true. I used both Nicholson and Simonds files. I annealed like you're talking about, by heating to nonmagnetic then shutting off the air and letting the fire die down overnight. The metal got plenty soft, but four out of four pieces of metal warped during the annealing process due to uneven cooling. I have one that I heated to nonmagnetic and then set outside the fire on the edge of the forge. It cooled straight and got softer, but not as soft as the ones that cooled slower. Will try the sand/ashes next time, as neither way I've done it has resulted in exactly what I want. The other thing I learned was that the files I used should be quenched in oil, not water. One warped on the quench, one cracked, when I quenched them in water. Good luck!
 
This is what works for me, do what you want:

1. I have a turkey roasting pan I picked up from goodwill for a couple of bucks filled with wood ash from a fire place. I heat it in the oven in my house for about 45 minutes at 500 deg. F
2. I take the file I want to anneal, two or three at a time works better, and a scrap piece of low carbon steel and use some light weight wire to tie them together.
3. I get the forge heating up about 20 minutes before the ash should be done cooking. I bring the roasting pan out and set it on fire bricks just after putting the steel in the forge (propane).
4. Once the steel reaches non-magnetic, insert it into the wood ash, and dig it out the next day. The first time I tried this set up, I went poking around in the ash two to three hours later with a stick and stopped when the stick started smoldering.

Chuck
 
I have a heap of 4" rockwool insulation from renovating my attic. I bring anything I want to anneal up to non-mag for about 5 minutes (coal forge) and then wrap it in a few layers of Rockwool. Does the trick for me.

Cheers ROdy
 
I made file knives for about 15 years, or more. Nicholsons, and Simmonds are very impressive. Even with a simple heat treat. To anneal I just bring them up to red-orange in dim light, and let them air cool. That makes them soft enough to drill with cobalt bits. I normalize them 3 times before quench, take them up to 1500o, or just red-orange again, and oil quench. I triple temper at 425, to 450o, depending on the intended use, and they hold a great edge. I also usually softback them in a pan of water using a propane torch. There are probably other files as good, but those two brands are the only ones I will trust.
 
That softback technique with the water is a great idea!! I tried doing it in the air and screwed it up (heat made it to the edge).
 
A while back I Emailed Copper tools, maker of Nicholson files and ask them about the metal in there files. They were nice enough to call me back, and I had quite a nice chat with the manager of customer services. I explained to him that I was a blacksmith and I worked with young people with Little money. We like to recycle old metal in to useful items. Has nothing to do with what is best or the best steel It has to do with the Independence of being able to make good with Little.

The representative from Copper tool, told me that "while the exact composition of there steel is priority, If I treated there regular files like W-1 and there farrier rasps like 1095 I should have good results"

Subject has been discussed a lot.

]http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394350&highlight=files
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394412&highlight=files
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388706&highlight=files
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302000&highlight=files
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173599&highlight=files
 
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I should have specified that i would be using Nicholson files sorry.

I dont have a forge so i,ll have to use a torch to heat them. I never thought of using a propane torch,thanks for the idea LRB.

The consesus seems to be a SLOWWWW cool is the way to go. Atho LRB says air cool works well enuff to drill them.If this is true would they be soft enuff to GRIND as well ?

Biker: thanks but none of those links worked for me.

Thanks a bunch evryone one, for your input !!!
 
STEFANJ, use about 3/8" depth of water in a shallow pan. Hold the blade by the tang with vise grips. Begin at the ricasso and work the flame forward as the color goes through the stages to gray on the spine. Be careful as you approach the point. You will have to lift the rear of the blade up to keep the point from over heating as you get near. You may want a tougher point. If so, let it go to peacock blue and immediately roll it into the water.
 
Hello to all - I am kinda new here - i am an iron worker / millwright - now disabled due to long term back problems stemming from an injury when I was boiler tech on the USS Saratoga during desert shield/storm.

I have a lot of tools and time on my hands - i have a drawer full of old Nicholson files and was reading the threads here on this subject - decided to try it - i am having a problem/question with the non-magnetic state and annealing process.

like someone suggested on one of the threads I got a large baking pan and filled it with fine ash from my wood stove for the slow cooling off aspect - I got my wood stove cranked up full of wood and later when it was full of orange coals i found a way to stoke the coals with a make shift forced draft blower (hair dryer) and was able to get the file red/orange hot.

The problem is i can’t seem to get it to the state where the magnet won’t stick to it -- I don’t no if I am getting it too hot? Or not hot enough?
I had read in one of the threads that as long as it was glowing orange it was OK but I do not know if that is the case?

Please help me with this. I really would like to do it right.

Thank you
 
BFH44 said:
Hello to all - I am kinda new here - i am an iron worker / millwright - now disabled due to long term back problems stemming from an injury when I was boiler tech on the USS Saratoga during desert shield/storm.

I have a lot of tools and time on my hands - i have a drawer full of old Nicholson files and was reading the threads here on this subject - decided to try it - i am having a problem/question with the non-magnetic state and annealing process.

like someone suggested on one of the threads I got a large baking pan and filled it with fine ash from my wood stove for the slow cooling off aspect - I got my wood stove cranked up full of wood and later when it was full of orange coals i found a way to stoke the coals with a make shift forced draft blower (hair dryer) and was able to get the file red/orange hot.

The problem is i can’t seem to get it to the state where the magnet won’t stick to it -- I don’t no if I am getting it too hot? Or not hot enough?
I had read in one of the threads that as long as it was glowing orange it was OK but I do not know if that is the case?

Please help me with this. I really would like to do it right.

Thank you
Click to expand...

I am no expert on the subject but I would go with not hot enough. For carbon steel it becomes Non-Magnetic at about 1420F. When making a knife you will need to hit that temp for non-magnetic state and hold the temp for about 5+ minutes to achive the result you are looking for. Going above that temp you may get the metal so hot that you will ruin it but it still doesn't return to a magnetic state till it cools.

Refer to this link for a refrence:
http://tidewaterblacksmiths.net/2.html

LRB recommends and I know him and trust his knowlege:

LRB
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Geneva, FL
Posts: 1,019

I made file knives for about 15 years, or more. Nicholsons, and Simmonds are very impressive. Even with a simple heat treat. To anneal I just bring them up to red-orange in dim light, and let them air cool. That makes them soft enough to drill with cobalt bits. I normalize them 3 times before quench, take them up to 1500o, or just red-orange again, and oil quench. I triple temper at 425, to 450o, depending on the intended use, and they hold a great edge. I also usually softback them in a pan of water using a propane torch. There are probably other files as good, but those two brands are the only ones I will trust.



LRB said:
STEFANJ, use about 3/8" depth of water in a shallow pan. Hold the blade by the tang with vise grips. Begin at the ricasso and work the flame forward as the color goes through the stages to gray on the spine. Be careful as you approach the point. You will have to lift the rear of the blade up to keep the point from over heating as you get near. You may want a tougher point. If so, let it go to peacock blue and immediately roll it into the water.
Click to expand...
 
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1414 f, non magnetic, (Curie point) If you are orange and it's still magnetic maybe the inside hasn't come up to temp or your definition of orange is a bit shifted to red, ambient light will affect this.

Re: proprietary file alloy, hilarious, it cost 25$ for a chemical analysis. I usually give manufacturers the option of telling me. If they don't tell me then when I get the analysis I post it... I think maybe they use whatever is cheapest for them and so the alloy will constantly change.

I almost always grind my files in the hardened state after a 375f temper, even though I have a heat-treatment oven. It's not much help when the exact alloy isn't known, and it only takes a couple hours to grind a 8" file into a blade.
 
Thank you both -- i probably didn't have the middle hot enough it was a blazing bright orange but maybe still cool in the middle - so i will crank it up again and wait till i get it - might have to modify an old wood stove i got out behind the shed more fuel better fuel and patience -

thanks again!
 
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wnease said:
I almost always grind my files in the hardened state after a 375f temper, even though I have a heat-treatment oven. It's not much help when the exact alloy isn't known, and it only takes a couple hours to grind a 8" file into a blade.
Click to expand...

Same here. You just need to keep it cool, sepecially thin sections like the edge and tip. I feel it's much more likely to ruin the steel by attempting to completely re-HT with backyard methods.

I've only used Nicholson and Simmonds and have had pleasing results from both. As good as a full-on custom made from new known steel? No. Better than wally-world stuff? Oh yeah :thumbup:
 
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