Making a knife out of a file

james terrio said:
Same here. You just need to keep it cool, sepecially thin sections like the edge and tip. I feel it's much more likely to ruin the steel by attempting to completely re-HT with backyard methods.

I've only used Nicholson and Simmonds and have had pleasing results from both. As good as a full-on custom made from new known steel? No. Better than wally-world stuff? Oh yeah :thumbup:
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I am using a Nicholson file I knew to use a quality file.

Question -- when you wrote
james terrio said:
I feel it's much more likely to ruin the steel by attempting to completely re-HT with backyard methods:
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did you mean if I get it to hot when trying to re heat it I can screw up the steel ?

I asked because of the wording “completely”

do you mean unwanted molecular structure change
 
Even if we knew the type of steel, there would be a chance of over or underheating, decarburizing, quenching at too slow a rate, quenching faster than necessary and cracking the blade, over heating during temper, and then when you finish grind you could still overheat the blade! It's fun to do your own heat treat but without knowing the alloy it's like starting a race without knowing where it goes!

Btw steel structure isn't molecular... but you can mess up the grain size with too high a temperature, and many other things I don't understand yet.
 
thanks; someone used that word in reference to changing something at a "molecular level " so i thought they knew what they were talking about - maybe it was a different subject

at work welding structural steel it seemed whole lot different than the types of things i am reading in the forum -

Well I have a drawer full of old Nicholson files setting there getting rusty and taking up space so if I trash a couple in the learning process it won’t cost much - seems i learn something every day
 
BFH44 said:
Question -- when you wrote did you mean if I get it to hot when trying to re heat it I can screw up the steel ?
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In a word, yes. Again, I agree with wnease's answers. If you like I can find you some links and info on tempering to help you get good results.

BFH44 said:
Well I have a drawer full of old Nicholson files setting there getting rusty and taking up space so if I trash a couple in the learning process it won’t cost much - seems i learn something every day
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Makes sense to me. Then when you decide to "splurge" on new steel you will learn even more :thumbup:
 
bikermikearchery said:
A while back I Emailed Copper tools, maker of Nicholson files and ask them about the metal in there files. They were nice enough to call me back, and I had quite a nice chat with the manager of customer services. I explained to him that I was a blacksmith and I worked with young people with Little money. We like to recycle old metal in to useful items. Has nothing to do with what is best or the best steel It has to do with the Independence of being able to make good with Little.

The representative from Copper tool, told me that "while the exact composition of there steel is priority, If I treated there regular files like W-1 and there farrier rasps like 1095 I should have good results"
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I had a very similar conversation with a rep. from Nicholson about 10 years ago and was told exactly the same thing.
 
Well BFH44 your persistence will probably result in some good blades, and it has inspired me to anneal some of my files and see if I can get a nice hamon when I re-heat treat. I don't usually use shallow hardening steels but this could be fun!

Read the sticky on hypereutectoid steels, and avoid overheating when you anneal, when you austenitize, and when you temper, and good luck, I'll post what happens to mine when I get back from vacation.
 
thank you to all of you ! - I will go back and read some of this and the links agin to make sure i dont misunderstand


at risk of sounding dumb - what is Hammon?
 
A hamon is a visible temper line where the hardened steel meets the softer, created by an edge quench. It is brought out by acid etching the blade. It has no benefit other than cosmetic, and not all steels will produce one. It is not something you need to try for at this time. Wait until you have more experience and a better understanding with HTing blades. Personally, I don't understand all the hoopla over it, and have no desire whatsoever to do it, but then I also have absolutely no interest in oriental blades, or art for that matter. I guess I am a heretic of sorts.
 
here ya' go, spec analysis for a Nicholson file :cool: Courtasy of Matt Bower on iforgeiron. .
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C:1.28 | Mn:0.34 | P: 0.016 | S:0.015 | Si:0.15 | Cu: 0.02 | Cr:0.14 | Mo:0.005 | Ni: 0.02 | Sn: 0.002 | V: - | Nb: -
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Here is a harbor freight...made in China
C:1.3 | Mn: 0.34 | P:0.015 | S:0.009 | Si:0.24 | Cu:0.01 | Cr:0.62 | Mo:0.005 | Ni:0.02 | Sn: 0.003 | V: - | Nb:0.010
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Here is a heller..
C:1.20 | Mn:0.25 | P:0.010 | S:0.020 | Si:0.12 | Cu:0.04 | Cr:0.03 | Mo: 0.004 | Ni:0.03 | Sn:0.018 | V: 0.005 | Nb:
_______________________________________
.
We use a lot of files too..I buy them up at the flea markets for $1 each or less often times.Never less than a dozen laying on the bench at any time..The old Black Diamond brand is about the same thing as nicholson and makes wonderful knives.Been using old file steel in hawks and knives for years..I love the way a file welded into wrought iron leaves a nice visible tooth pattern when etched..
 
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LRB said:
A hamon is a visible temper line where the hardened steel meets the softer, created by an edge quench. It is brought out by acid etching the blade. It has no benefit other than cosmetic, and not all steels will produce one. It is not something you need to try for at this time. Wait until you have more experience and a better understanding with HTing blades. Personally, I don't understand all the hoopla over it, and have no desire whatsoever to do it, but then I also have absolutely no interest in oriental blades, or art for that matter. I guess I am a heretic of sorts.
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thank you -- i think i saw that somewhere in here with clay ? - if it isn't functional i dont care about it
 
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Angus McGunnigl said:
I've done all my annealling "GreenPete" style and had no troubles.
He has stuff on YouTube.
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after watching his video i think i got it hotter than it needed - if i can cut it with another file - but the magnet still sticks to it does that mean its ok ?

should trash it or just keep cranking ?

-- thank you - to all of you
 
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I think i will go ahead and grind it then harden it --- if it doesn't come out good i will still have a good beater shop knife :eek:
 
The over heating will cause the grain to enlarge, but this can be reversed with heat cycles. Within reason. I am not sure I understand when you say the magnet still sticks. Once it cools way down from the anneal temp the magnet will stick. When the steel is at 1414° or above, it will not attract. When cooled down, it will again. The loss of magnetism is a base line to tell you where you are with the heat. If hardening the steel, it tells you to go a bit higher in temp. Maybe two shades of red higher, hold it there a minute or so, then quench and temper. If using canola oil, heat the oil to around 125° to 135° using a candy thermometer. Warm oil cools the steel faster than cool oil, and with file steel, you want fast.
 
Have you guys heard of putting a file in your kitchen oven and turning the oven on the self cleaning cycle.The next morning your file is supposed to be the right temper to make a knife with. When I worked in a machine shop my boss would draw back a lot of tooling in the oven at 400 degrees for an hour, we mostly worked with A2 air harden steel. Our tooling was in the 57-59 Rockwell C scale range.
 
LRB said:
I am not sure I understand when you say the magnet still sticks.
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I am not real used to typing and i said it the wrong way -- what i meant to say is -- because the magnet stuck to the metal even when it was bright red/orange i thought i had screwed it up -- but after it cooled i could cut into the file that was heated with a different file - so it did get soft --

I am asking is it OK to go ahead since i can cut into it with another file?

or is it necessary to reheat till the magnet doesn't stick?

so far from people here and what i have read it will be ok as is and then harden it after i shape it and put the edge on ?

one all these things i am open to suggestions

Thanks ----
--- Eric
 
for some reason i do not know why -- i like the shape of what i read is called wharncliffe blade. - when i comes to shaping /designing the blade---

does the blade shape matter much other then strength ?

or is there something more involved?

or is it personal preference?
 
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