Making a Titanium UL Hatchet, advice?

thebrain said:
I have a similar deal at my work for non knife related items mostly. I can borrow a jackhammer, ladders, all manner of saws but I still can't talk my boss onto buying a 2x72 belt grinder, power hammer or anything cool.
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I just ordered a belt grinder the other day. But because safety said our bench grinder wasn't safe??? But I am kinda tempted to make an axe head or knife from one of our old cutters now, they are crazy heavy for their size and messed up the wear blade section that fell off the loader and went into the grinder, no idea what kind of metal it is though. I do know cutting it with a zip disk sucks even, just eats them, cutting concrete with burnt toast might be easier. OK maybe not, but it's bad
 
Jeff000 said:
I was worried plasma and grinder would leave too crazy of a haz and affect any heat treating. I have access to waterjet and laser pretty easy though.
If ti was cheaper I'd make several and beat them up. I think I can cut 3 from the the peice of ti I have, trying to get 3 different designs to try. Maybe grab a slightly thicker piece to try too.

I like your widening idea, think if I can get it to be 27*12mm or so would probably be ideal.




There are a few axe heads that are designed to have you use a piece of wood to use, but it's sometimes frustrating enough finding appropriate sticks for a fire as is.

A hickory handle is pretty light, but a few Oz here and few there add up really quickly.




I made an aluminum axe with a file ground down for a blade and then rivited to the aluminum, it was 9oz total with no hand protection on handle. And it would suck to use for doing much. I'm not expecting this ti hatchet to ever be used for clearing brush or hacking a tree down. But with the AL one I could cut 2*4 with ease, and a 6" log it stuck in with enough bite that I was able to smash it in enough to split. But the AL gave up the fight on that one it just can't handle the abuse, and AL is brutal with vibration.
Im hopeful that titanium will hold up significantly better.



Im hoping each outing doesn't cost too much in material loss for sharpening/shaping. I kinda hope it work hardens itself with age a bit
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The HAZ was pretty ugly, but titanium is a very poor conductor of heat so although it did require a lot of grinding off the big uglies and thus was a bit wasteful of material, beyond that it was virtually unaffected by heat. Are you worried about messing up the "stock" ht of your titanium? What alloy is it, if I may ask?

Concerning vibration, titanium alloys absorb vibration very well, and it will also work-harden over time. You'll be pleased.

In hammering the back to mushroom it out, you should be able to double the width if it's done carefully. Certainly if you make some sort of steel form around the ti plate. Just watch out for curling the ti around too much as it's forged, it will roll over and break off.
 
BitingSarcasm said:
You are going to run into several issues. Some random thoughts: I have never met a paracord-wrapped handle that was comfortable for any kind of sustained chopping. If weight is so critical, skip an axe altogether and tape the ends of a saw blade or learn how to baton a smaller tough knife.

Mechanics are also going to work against you. Titanium is amazing stuff, but part of what makes an axe work like an axe is having enough mass behind the edge. I have a tomahawk cut from a big, flat piece of D2, where most of the mass is actually in the handle. It doesn't work as well as a straight chopper as a traditional, wooden-handle hawk. The center of mass isn't at the end of the lever arm, so you aren't getting the kind of mechanical advantage that makes chips fly. I do like it in applications where I need a lot of control in shaping a piece of wood instead of blowing it apart, since I am not cashing in speed for power.

Going light is okay for some things in backpacking, but if 7oz is the limit for your axe, the tool you are going to end up with is probably going to be an axe-shaped object of limited utility. Although it would be incredibly awesome if you push the envelope and innovate something new and exciting.... Like Seth says, talk to Mecha and seeing what he thinks is your best bet.
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This sums it up well. You need mass in the head do to anything. The Vaughan mini-hatchet with 8 oz. head is likely the smallest thing made that is even slightly useful. A Fiskars X7 is pretty light for backpacking and the weight is al in the head where it belongs.
 
You don't need light material to make a light axe, you can make a steel axe as light as you want.

Here is one I made, a ground down slip fit head that is under 8oz & a total weight with handle of 11.5oz(325g). Lighter than a can of Coke.

WhqVLeo.jpg


LlslTMN.jpg


It's a surprisingly good chopper too thanks to a very long handle, what the head lacks in weight it makes up for in speed!
 
Mecha said:
The HAZ was pretty ugly, but titanium is a very poor conductor of heat so although it did require a lot of grinding off the big uglies and thus was a bit wasteful of material, beyond that it was virtually unaffected by heat. Are you worried about messing up the "stock" ht of your titanium? What alloy is it, if I may ask?

Concerning vibration, titanium alloys absorb vibration very well, and it will also work-harden over time. You'll be pleased.

In hammering the back to mushroom it out, you should be able to double the width if it's done carefully. Certainly if you make some sort of steel form around the ti plate. Just watch out for curling the ti around too much as it's forged, it will roll over and break off.
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Ya I am worried about messing the stock ht. I have Ti 6Al-4V alloy. I think they call it grade 5. If Ti was cheaper I would try a few different types too. Or maybe if I get a lot of interest from the UL backpackers I might put more time into that.

The vibration handling was why I looked to ti after the aluminium one did as well as it did, at first I was looking to better al alloys, but ti is really the only option.
I'm super excited to get this going. for better or worse it'll be fun. I might have to see if I can play with solid works for stress test simulation so I can design something that has a better chance of being light and strong. Unless there is an easier way, I thought fusion 360 could do it, but I can't figure it out. I could have sworn fusion had a weight option so I could see how heavy it will be after cutting it out, but again I can't figure it out, at least yet. lol.
I'm trying to think of a way to make a ti folder bow saw to use a 12" blade too, gotta get as much use from this sheet of ti that I can, lol.

A steel form is actually a good idea, should be easy enough to make, wonder if I could press it into the shape then instead of hammer? Or would that be better or worse? I have wanted a reason to build a nice little hydraulic press, lol.


I'mSoSharp said:
You don't need light material to make a light axe, you can make a steel axe as light as you want.

Here is one I made, a ground down slip fit head that is under 8oz & a total weight with handle of 11.5oz(325g). Lighter than a can of Coke.

It's a surprisingly good chopper too thanks to a very long handle, what the head lacks in weight it makes up for in speed!
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That looks really great actually, and I actually want to make one for normal camping now. How long is the handle?
With a cf handle would probably drop an oz or two even.
But at 11.5oz it's 50% heavier than what I am trying to achieve.

Hmm cf handle, with Ti head? I wonder how much room I have left on my ti sheet. I might need a nesting program, lol
 
Jeff000 said:
But at 11.5oz it's 50% heavier than what I am trying to achieve.
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With the greatest of respect a hatchet by it's very nature requires a certain amount of weight else it's just an odd shaped knife.
Get a hammer & hammer in a nail, make that same hammer ultra-light & see how it performs on the same nail........ there comes a point where it won't work at all.
 
I'mSoSharp said:
With the greatest of respect a hatchet by it's very nature requires a certain amount of weight else it's just an odd shaped knife.
Get a hammer & hammer in a nail, make that same hammer ultra-light & see how it performs on the same nail........ there comes a point where it won't work at all.
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I've used a lot of tools as a hammer before, as long as they are rigid enough they will work, and like my hatchet sometimes it just needs to be rigid enough to be hit by something else. A stick makes a terrible hammer, as do needle nose pliers, but a stick hitting those pliers can sure get the job done.

Everything is a hammer if you try hard enough, some are just more one use than others.
 
Jeff000 said:
Im hoping each outing doesn't cost too much in material loss for sharpening/shaping. I kinda hope it work hardens itself with age a bit
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My reply was to the suggestion about grinding down a tomahawk head. I meant you could further reduce its weight not only by grinding on the pool/cheeks, but also by sacrificing some of the hardened bit.

That being said, I do hope you find something to your liking!
 
Jeff000 said:
Ya I am worried about messing the stock ht. I have Ti 6Al-4V alloy. I think they call it grade 5. If Ti was cheaper I would try a few different types too. Or maybe if I get a lot of interest from the UL backpackers I might put more time into that.

The vibration handling was why I looked to ti after the aluminium one did as well as it did, at first I was looking to better al alloys, but ti is really the only option.
I'm super excited to get this going. for better or worse it'll be fun. I might have to see if I can play with solid works for stress test simulation so I can design something that has a better chance of being light and strong. Unless there is an easier way, I thought fusion 360 could do it, but I can't figure it out. I could have sworn fusion had a weight option so I could see how heavy it will be after cutting it out, but again I can't figure it out, at least yet. lol.
I'm trying to think of a way to make a ti folder bow saw to use a 12" blade too, gotta get as much use from this sheet of ti that I can, lol.

A steel form is actually a good idea, should be easy enough to make, wonder if I could press it into the shape then instead of hammer? Or would that be better or worse? I have wanted a reason to build a nice little hydraulic press, lol.




That looks really great actually, and I actually want to make one for normal camping now. How long is the handle?
With a cf handle would probably drop an oz or two even.
But at 11.5oz it's 50% heavier than what I am trying to achieve.

Hmm cf handle, with Ti head? I wonder how much room I have left on my ti sheet. I might need a nesting program, lol
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It's gonna work fine. All that will happen is you'll get a vibration dampening hatchet that can't rust and is bigger than a steel one for the same target weight. The HT on the grade 5 is pretty soft as a piece of bar stock, it won't be negatively affected by heating and hammering the back. The business ends will just work-harden and get better over time and use. If you try to precipitation harden it, just wait until it's fully shaped first.
 
You seem pretty excited about this project. Kudos. Please come back with updates on it.

As a practical matter, I feel compelled to reiterate some of the points voiced earlier.

7 ounces of steel isn't any heavier than 7 ounces of titanium. I.E., you can make a head as light as you want using steel, too.

I like the idea of just carrying a tomahawk style (slip fit) head without a haft to save weight. Make a quick haft on site from a branch.

If the head weight is limited, use a longer handle to make up for it, via speed.

Balance your desire for a light load against how much work you plan to do. If you have much to chop, you won't be saving yourself any work with a super light tool. Professionals learned decades ago that carrying a chainsaw is still much easier than using an axe.

It's not just the raw weight that makes axes efficient choppers. It's the balance. Most all the weight is clustered at the head, with a comparatively light weight haft. If you want to experiment with lightweight space age materials, then I think you'd be better off experimenting with the handle instead. That way, every ounce in the head will work as efficiently as possible.
 
Mecha said:
It's gonna work fine. All that will happen is you'll get a vibration dampening hatchet that can't rust and is bigger than a steel one for the same target weight. The HT on the grade 5 is pretty soft as a piece of bar stock, it won't be negatively affected by heating and hammering the back. The business ends will just work-harden and get better over time and use. If you try to precipitation harden it, just wait until it's fully shaped first.
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Did a little hike today, brought two tiny steel hatchets. Having a larger blade is actually more important than I thought.
Going to try for a 4.5" cutting face I think. 14" handle.
I was going to precipitate harden and then sharpen, but shaped and rough grind.


the possum said:
You seem pretty excited about this project. Kudos. Please come back with updates on it.

As a practical matter, I feel compelled to reiterate some of the points voiced earlier.

7 ounces of steel isn't any heavier than 7 ounces of titanium. I.E., you can make a head as light as you want using steel, too.

I like the idea of just carrying a tomahawk style (slip fit) head without a haft to save weight. Make a quick haft on site from a branch.

If the head weight is limited, use a longer handle to make up for it, via speed.

Balance your desire for a light load against how much work you plan to do. If you have much to chop, you won't be saving yourself any work with a super light tool. Professionals learned decades ago that carrying a chainsaw is still much easier than using an axe.

It's not just the raw weight that makes axes efficient choppers. It's the balance. Most all the weight is clustered at the head, with a comparatively light weight haft. If you want to experiment with lightweight space age materials, then I think you'd be better off experimenting with the handle instead. That way, every ounce in the head will work as efficiently as possible.
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I'll try and cut some sort of a slip fit head too. I can keep the head larger with Ti over steel for the weight though. I think it would be hard to find a good branch for a handle though, we don't really have hard wood around here.

I'm playing with fusion to see how light I can make the handle and keep enough strength.

Ya this will be for getting the fire going, not feeding a fire all weekend, I have no problem burning a long log and just moving the log over and over.
 
Jeff000 said:
I've used a lot of tools as a hammer before, as long as they are rigid enough they will work, and like my hatchet sometimes it just needs to be rigid enough to be hit by something else.
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Remember science and that F=ma, so I'd call the position a little specious. Mass is a multiplier, that's very significant. You might want to think a little about how much effort you're going to put into using this Ti hatchet as a measure of exertion (in calories), vs. exertion of carrying something heavier but more efficient. Just in weight it's probably a difference in low single digit calories a mile for a person of reasonable physical fitness and size. The exertion in multiplying with "a" vs. multiplying with "m" to achieve the same "F" might well veer to the heavier but more efficient tool. Such has been the case with many a tool.

If it's a side thing that probably won't be used, fine. But if you're using it regularly consider the whole shebang, not just one metric. Then consider the qualitative aspects like ease of use and the mental effect of that at the end of a long day.
 
garry3 said:
10 OZ. TITANIUM LATHER'S HATCHET / 13.5" FIBERGLASS HANDLE
https://www.stiletto.com/p-77-10-oz-titanium-lathers-hatchet-135-fiberglass-handle.aspx
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I wonder if that's overall weight or just the head. But it's a tiny cutting edge at 2"

Fmont said:
Remember science and that F=ma, so I'd call the position a little specious. Mass is a multiplier, that's very significant. You might want to think a little about how much effort you're going to put into using this Ti hatchet as a measure of exertion (in calories), vs. exertion of carrying something heavier but more efficient. Just in weight it's probably a difference in low single digit calories a mile for a person of reasonable physical fitness and size. The exertion in multiplying with "a" vs. multiplying with "m" to achieve the same "F" might well veer to the heavier but more efficient tool. Such has been the case with many a tool.

If it's a side thing that probably won't be used, fine. But if you're using it regularly consider the whole shebang, not just one metric. Then consider the qualitative aspects like ease of use and the mental effect of that at the end of a long day.
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Remember that I plan on using a log to smash it in the rest of the way, so mass will be there, kinda.

A little less weight makes a big difference on my shoulders and feet at the end of the day. Will a few Oz make a noticeable difference? Probably not, especially when I start the day with 3l of water. But every little bit helps, people buy the aluminum tent pegs over steel to save a handful of grams knowing the aluminum are far less useful.

I normally carry a saw and no hatchet, but found myself wanting the ability to split more often than cut length.

And besides, I'm having fun learning fusion 360, have the ability to get it cut, and a chunk of titanium I bought years ago.


Square_peg said:
Another route.....
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-floating-axe.1156508/

Floataxe1.jpg
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That is super cool.
 
Jeff000 said:
Did a little hike today, brought two tiny steel hatchets. Having a larger blade is actually more important than I thought.
Going to try for a 4.5" cutting face I think. 14" handle.
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Well now ya gotta spill the beans. What two tiny steel hatchets did ya use? Got pics? Size & weight?

I had a similar experience a while back. There was a limb laying halfway across the road; about 7" thick or so on the fat end. I decided it was the perfect opportunity to test out the Kelly Flint Edge hatchet I had in the car. It's a 1 1/4# sized head on a 14" handle- typical scout or camping sized hatchet. I never got all the way through the branch. I had someplace to be, so I cut the test short & pushed it outta the way. From that day on I kept a bigger heavier tool in the car.
 
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