Man dies os dehydration on survival course

The guides were definitely not doing their job. Doesn't sound like they are too experienced if they didn't see the signs of dehydration.
 
I've been mulling this over since it was first posted. Here is my take on just what the article and interviews stated (I was not there).

Job one for a guide is to keep the client alive. Period. "Suck it up", "Tough it out" sounds good on the football field, but not in survival conditions where the guides have it within their means to asess and correct a potentially deadly situation.

Waivers are neat pieces of paper, but paper is all they are. You can not sign away liability for proven negligence leading to a customer's death.

Blaming a dead person for a guide's failing (these guys are supposed to be professionals, right?) is lame, IMHO. If the guide saw what was stated in the article (and he had to since he was with the guy when he died), he had a responsibility to give the guy water, perfect record of graduates be damned.

Codger
 
What a sad waste of a man's life. It's bad enough when someone is killed by accident. Witholding water when you have it available is negligent homicide in my book. The most basic first aid courses cover dehydration and heat-related symptoms.

Water is as necessary for life as air. What would you think if someone wouldn't provide air to someone who was suffocating? What if he was bleeding? Same thing with water. If you heard of a river guide who sat in the boat and watched a client drown because he thought swimming would toughen him up, what would you think? How about a climbing guide standing there with a rope and you were trapped on a rock face? I don't think so.

The mindset this group was after was to challenge the participants mentally and physically. If that's what the customer was after, so be it, BUT regardless of any contractual agreement, they still need to follow some sort of reasonable care. I hope they throw the criminal and civil book at them.
 
The guides are culpable. Its unexcusable considering the behavior the article says he was exhibiting.
 
During the early phase of the expedition, participants can drink water at the source only and cannot carry it with them.
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This seems to defy common sense to me. I understand the need to push oneself, but if you have a water bottle, it would make sense to fill it up "just in case."

I'm fairly certain I'd have told the "guides" to bugger off.
 
I've heard BOSS was tough, but this is ridiculous. Part of the fee to take the course is to have competant instructors. There's a difference between toughing out a situation, and having your body start shutting down due to dehydration and they should have seen the signs.
 
The level of incompetence and irresponsibility on the part of the guides is disgraceful. For God's sake, any 12 year old boy scout would have recognized that man was in trouble and would have known what to do about it. This BOSS outfit seems too blinded by its own philosophy to recognize that the most important aspect of survival is staying alive - NOT pushing your limits, or having an "experience", or any other happy horse manure. Idiots like this really chap my hide.
 
Let's see a $3,175 survival course that offers the opportunity to go 10 hours without a drink in the 100-degree heat. Gosh, I can come up with a few more courses to push you "past those false limits your mind has set for your body." How about:

Jump in a glacial creek and stand around in cotton clothes in rainy sub-40F degree weather for many hours....

Drink bacteria-infected water for several days to induce severe diarrhea....

Tie your ankles together and have several pints of blood drawn to simulate leg injury and blood loss - then drag yourself back over the trail to where you can be rescued....

Get dropped off in the middle of the open ocean to tread water for a week....


Survivalism isn't about inviting opportunities to die. Survivalism is about remaining comfortable in difficult situations. If survival instructors want to introduce students to dehydration, hypothermia, or diarrhea - that's fine so long as immediately after the initial onset of symptoms, action is taken. The lesson should be, "See, that's a symptom of X condition which will kill you if you ignore it. Here's what you need to do immediately whenever these symptoms arise..."

The lesson is not, "See, that's a symptom of X condition which will kill you. Let's ignore it so that you can push past those false limits your mind has set for your body."

Those "false limits" are not false - they are meaningful signals built into a very complex, robust and finely-tuned system honed by millions of years of successful survival. Can you push past them and still live? Yes, people do all the time. But a survival course that invites people to ignore the body's signals is not about discovering "false limits" - it's just a course on "false survivalism".

BOSS should be held liable - it was a stupid and unnecessary waste of a life.

my .02
 
mycroftt said:
This BOSS outfit seems too blinded by its own philosophy to recognize that the most important aspect of survival is staying alive - NOT pushing your limits, or having an "experience", or any other happy horse manure.
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Well said. :thumbup:
 
I haven't been in the military, so please correct me if I am wrong-- if this happened in military training, the people in charge would be in a lot of trouble, right? My point being that if you are training people to go into battle and you can't behave that way, you sure as $%^&* can't do it for a civilian/voluntary/paid excercise!
 
Well, if this is a survival program, they seem to have failed in their mission...
 
DaleW said:
I haven't been in the military, so please correct me if I am wrong-- if this happened in military training, the people in charge would be in a lot of trouble, right? My point being that if you are training people to go into battle and you can't behave that way, you sure as $%^&* can't do it for a civilian/voluntary/paid excercise!
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Depends on the situation, while in training like basic and AIT, there is a lot more instructors around to look after the guys. Once at your Unit or at advanced training the level of instructor’s drops and more responsibility is placed on the individual and students.

Training for combat and civilian survival are not remotely the same and I don’t think it’s a good comparison.

I really like Picts training method and wonder if that is what they were trying to do here. Does seem like the guy didn’t really know what he was getting into and not drinking water is never recommended before any kind of training.
 
Horned Toad said:
And you learned this from

(A) BUDS
(B) movie
(C) workout video
(D) book
(E) guy at gunshop
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While shooting an NRA long range match at Coalinga CA a few years ago, I met a bunch of SEALs going thru some kind of long range shooting class at the same range. They spoke of a garden spot called Nyland where stalking was practiced / prefected. The WO in charge of the group at Coalinga said instructors circulated amoung the ghillied crawlers and dispensed fluids as needed. Hydrate or die...
 
I'm with everyone else on this one. Sounds like a pretty clear cut case of criminal negligence, and I'm amazed that the prosecutors didn't consider this worthy of being put before a jury. I'm sure a moderate jail sentence of a couple of years for the "survival course" leaders would have a salutary effect on all the other people operating in this industry, and would probably prevent a similar tragedy from happening again.

Why is it that we on this forum understand that survival is about proper preparation and planning, whereas these so called 'experts' think its about completely failing to prepare and then taking people to the brink of severe injury or death?
 
Hey Guys...

Ok,, so know we know it does happen, and under certain condition we know it happens quite easily...

Now we need to know how to prevent it, and what to look for in other people who may be dehydrated...

I'd like some of guys, especially with medical background to chime in, and tell us what we NEED to know..

Adrenjunky

If I could get you to de-cloak and give us your thoughts, we would much appreciate it..

I know of only one test for it, and that is to pinch the skin. If it stays, theres a likelihood of dehydration...

I would like to, and think it's important that everyone learns a lesson from this..

In the summer when I carry water, I will usually add a little orange juice, just a tablespoon, and a very tiny pinch of salt to keep electrolytes up.

So lets here it guys!

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Normark said:
,
Now we need to know how to prevent it, and what to look for in other people who may be dehydrated...

I'd like some of guys, especially with medical background to chime in, and tell us what we NEED to know..
Click to expand...

I'll make a few comments for what its worth.

First anyone, ANYONE who is exhibiting altered mental status while in temps like that needs immediate care. The exercise should have ended right there for this person until he was normal or evacuated. There is no second option here. What they did was criminal because of the level of negligence shown especially since some were supposedly “Wilderness first aid trained”. This would make them culpable in a medical sense also. They should have recognized what was happening and provided treatment.

Secondly, all the military and survival training I have been through and everything else I have been taught has said to NOT travel during the day in conditions like that. Rest during the day and travel at night.

Third, basic and AIT are a little different then sniper school. They assume they have already weeded out the weak people so there is no reason for stress from lack of water. Having said that, my understanding is that the Army no longer stresses it soldiers by refusing water. They have discovered that it causes more damage than actually helps. You cannot train your body to go without water. The army no longer withholds water from trainees, at least not to any degree that it can harm them.

KR

EMT
Wilderness EMT
Ex-Army Scout Sergeant
NASAR SAR Tech
 
The first symptom of dehydration is thirst - if you feel thirsty, you are already lacking the water that your body needs to function properly.

The signs of serious dehydration are really very obvious - severe thirst, headache, fatigue, blurred vision, dark yellow urine and dizziness.

If rehydration does not occur, the person will begin to experience increased heart rate and respiration, nausea, possible seizures, unconciousness and then death.

Also, it's important to maintain electrolye balance if you are sweating profusely and rehydrating with water. The correct ratio for rehydration solution is 1 level teaspoon of salt and 8 level teaspoons of sugar dissolved in about 1 liter of water.
 
kr1 said:
Secondly, all the military and survival training I have been through and everything else I have been taught has said to NOT travel during the day in conditions like that. Rest during the day and travel at night.
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That's a great point.

It looks to me like this is some sort of vision quest thing. Having a good survival mentality means you think smart, and ACT smart. Walking through that kind of heat, at 6000 feet, with no water is dumb.
 
Normark said:
Hey Guys...


I know of only one test for it, and that is to pinch the skin. If it stays, theres a likelihood of dehydration...
Click to expand...


Sounds like this guy was way past the pinch test, another one is to have them lay down, check pulse, then stand up and check pulse, if the pulse jumps more than 20bpm different, its time for some fluids, as in an IV wouldn’t hurt.
 
catspaw said:
While shooting an NRA long range match at Coalinga CA a few years ago, I met a bunch of SEALs going thru some kind of long range shooting class at the same range. They spoke of a garden spot called Nyland where stalking was practiced / prefected. The WO in charge of the group at Coalinga said instructors circulated amoung the ghillied crawlers and dispensed fluids as needed. Hydrate or die...
Click to expand...

So from this brief contact you were able to determine that SEALS were the best trained and conditioned out there. Hmmm

I have worked with them in the field, some teams are squared away and some aint.
 
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