Man dies os dehydration on survival course

Nuum is packaged in a tube like Airborne and Elete is a liquid in a dropper bottle. My google-fu is week right now so I haven't looked these up yet but does anybody have experience with either product?

I use Elete for extremely strenuous exercise and it's awesome. Never used anything that even comes close in terms of keeping me feeling hydrated.

The Elete product is deceptively simple - it's seawater and some potassium chloride. One way to think about yourself in evolutionary terms is that you are fundamentally a sack of seawater that has escaped onto land and is running around in an arid environment which constantly threatens dehydration. A few drops of seawater will put your bloodstream's electrolytes back into balance.

http://eletewater.com/
 
Frediver I bought the Nuun product at Mel Cotton's in San Jose. Same with the Elete. REI has their sale starting this weekend BTW.
 
When we went into Desert Storm they had to educate soldiers to drink a certain amount of water even if they did't feel thirsty !!! Does anyone know how much water was recommended ??
Do you mean...

1. How much water *is* recommended per day?

2. How much water was recommended in Desert Storm?

3. How much water was recommended by the "guides" in this news story?
 
"The guides did not want him to fail the $3,175 course."

What? :confused:

That's just dumb. There's training, and there's stupid training. He died from stupidity, and not his own. They should sue the hell out of those guides.

Agree. Did they give him an A for effort or a refund to his estate.
 
Hey Guys...

Awesome Info..

That's Exactly the stuff we need to know.....

I drink almost 2 bottles of water in a two hour period during karate class..
I see a few people drink Very little...

Bill

We're gonna talk my friend!! :)

On a Scout trip we did a couple of years ago, we went where there was no potable water. I was on the planning team, and someone asked how much water to bring...

I go by a standard formula of 1 gallon per person per day..

I got a little bit of a problem from some people who saud we didn't need that much..
They figured a couple of cases of bottled water for the weeken for almost 30 people...

They listened and we had an excess of water,, by about 10 gallons. I make sure all of our scouts are drinking liquids on hikes...

Thanks Guys

Great stuff

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Erik another rule of thumb is 1 liter/hour or 8oz/15 minutes. I make my scouts carry two Nalgene bottles. I found if I said 2 water bottles their parents would send them with 2 -1/2 liter bottles.
 
That and we had a laser designator that was alot smaller than a GLLD which is more vehicle related than man portable

Spent a lot of time beinhd a GLLD myself, although I didn't have to carry it! Did you have to go to 13F school, Toad?
 
Someone mentioned seeing hikers carrying an empty AquaFina water bottle. 16oz of water for a day hike! When my son was in fifth grade the 3 classes were planning for a 12 mile hike from the campground to the pickup point. The mother in charge allowed no more than 16.9oz of water to be carried by each kid. She wanted to inspect each student's day pack before they left on the hike to make sure no extra water was being carried.
I called BS on this one and had the rules changed though I had to go to the principal. As it turned out the day was warm and all the water was consumed. We had cold watermellon slices and ice creambars waiting for the kids when they finished and believe me they needed them.

Last weekend the scouts did about 10 miles in 96oF. I carried a 3 liter Camelbak and a 1L Nalgene bottle to mix up Gatorade. This week I bought a 6L Camelbak bladder for the BFM.

Last night I also bought Nuum and Elete electrolyte replacers. I have never heard of either one. Nuum is packaged in a tube like Airborne and Elete is a liquid in a dropper bottle. My google-fu is week right now so I haven't looked these up yet but does anybody have experience with either product?

A mother? Gee, thanks, mom. Sounds like a hardcore twit.

I expect most here can understand wanting to test yourself or have been inadvertently placed in the position of being without luxury items but why would anybody deliberately place themselves or their children into a position where they are without something necessary for continued existence?

This is one of the finer examples of the type of backwards thinking that my friend used to refer to as "masturbating because it makes your hand feel good"

Sorry, if that offends anybody.
 
Good thread. Lots of useful info.

Last time I checked, a "One-A-Day" vitamin/mineral tablet has about the same minerals as a quart of GatorAide, less the salt and sugar. Pill+salt+sugar = a cheaper alternative.


Liability for negligence CAN be bargained away by a valid contract. Agreeing to waive laibility for negligence is routine in many venues and perfectly legal. Generally, willful miscounduct cannot be protected against by waiver.

"Criminal negligence" -- criminal liabiltiy for merely negligent conduct -- can only be created by statute (example: negligent homicide by motor vehicle). Causing death by willful misconduct is a felony in most states.

Soooooooooo, you have the lawyers for the insurance company telling the folks at BOSS to either keep their mouths shut or release only spin.
 
Good thread. Lots of useful info.

Last time I checked, a "One-A-Day" vitamin/mineral tablet has about the same minerals as a quart of GatorAide, less the salt and sugar. Pill+salt+sugar = a cheaper alternative.


Liability for negligence CAN be bargained away by a valid contract. Agreeing to waive laibility for negligence is routine in many venues and perfectly legal. Generally, willful miscounduct cannot be protected against by waiver.

".

When being taught, you the consumer are assuming a reasonable level of competence and safety protection from the provider (non of which happened in this case) thus liability insurance is required to run such a school. Waiver will not cover them and any 3rd yr law student will wipe the floor with this.

Skam
 
This is appalling. I agree with most who have already stated their opinions.

Rewind a few decades:
Back in the dark ages, the 1960's they withheld water from us in August, in Football practice. They withheld water in wrestling practice as well. In wrestling they could not only justify it for "toughness" but to shed those last couplr of pounds in water weight.
The military also withheld water regularly, not only in Basic but in other training.
Our society as a whole wasn't as savvy to hydration. I can remember mom's denying kids entry into the house for a drink, so we'd drink from the outdoor hose bib :)

As time marched on, in large part due to advances in sports medicine and the ability to better monitor and measure health, we discovered just how important hydration was for performance, whether it was an athlete or soldier or regular man on the street.
We wuold hear of those "football" deaths less and less, to the point when we did read of one, and water had been withheld, it was already a forgone conclusion someone was operating in an "old school" mentality.

Go to a high school in late August, to the football feield where they are practicing, you will find water , gatorade, ice and Pop-up shade tents.
Go observe basic training, and you will see water dispensed routinely.

My point here is that our entire society has now been engrained with how important it is to stay hydrated.

It is absolutely ignorant and woefully negligent, no matter what papers were signed, and no matter what was agreed, to watch a man slowly die from dehydration.
No excuse, none. You don't have to be a doctor, or even a Boyscout to see it or know what to do about it.

Their training is flawed if they don't allow the person to carry and use water, period.
Just like you cannot train someone to survive in 32° Ocean water for hours, you cannot train someone to survive without water. period.

I have personally drank from questionable sources, no filter within 20 miles, because I needed water in a bad way. I have seen people in the heat and humidty who should be sweating profusley, go absolutley dry skinned.
Alarm bells should go off!!!

Everyone is different, whether they exhibit dizziness first, or dryness of skin, or unclear thinking, any of these are serious signs, they aren't in the beginning of dehydration......basic thirst is the beginning...these are advanced stages and must be treated with the utmost of seriousness.

The general question, which has been brought up in this forum in the past, is:
What constitutes a survival school instructor? What training? What certification? What education? What background?
It's obvious something was lacking here.

My bet, is, that we are another step closer to some kind of legal certification, which will require completion of coursework, tests passed, and insurances obtained.

Not taking away from those who are doing a good job, but, right now, as it stands, someone can type a nice little background sheet, show their experience and call themselves a "Survival Instructor".
Again, my apoligies to those who act responsibly.

No matter how you stack this one, there is no defense, none.

I thought to myself, what if they were quick thinkers and said, "But But we told him to drink and he refused!"
Still no excuse. They are in control, they are the leaders of the circus.
They would still have to show that they went above and beyond to get him to stop and drink, which, by their own admission, they were far from doing.

This is, by it's presentation, a textbook case of negligence, and even further, stupidity.
 
When being taught, you the consumer are assuming a reasonable level of competence and safety protection from the provider (non of which happened in this case) thus liability insurance is required to run such a school. Waiver will not cover them and any 3rd yr law student will wipe the floor with this.

Skam
As I recall, you are in Canada. This case would be brought in the U.S.

While some U.S. states do not allow TOTAL denial of any remedy, all fifty states uphold limitation-of-liability clauses against claims of ordinary negligence. As I indicated, the elements of a valid contract must be present (such as "meeting of the minds" and "consideration"), but those elements are typically present. So, at best, you might get your fee refunded, or something else well short of full compensation.

As I said, willful misconduct is another issue. If a plaintiff can show reckless disregard for his/her safety, as may be present here, the limitation of liability clause may be disregarded.

The law in Canada, and elsewhere, may be otherwise.

Amazingly, people typically do not read legal documents that they sign. Apparently, if they bother to think about the meaning of the "fine print" at all, they suppose a future in which the "legaleze" will not be relevant. (They probably do not have THAT bumper sticker on their cars. You know the one.)

(By the way, as a point of information, limitation of liability language contained inside packages of consumer products is rarely effective in the U.S. because a federal law, the Magnuson-Moss [Consumer] Warranty Act, requires limitations of liability to be disclosed to the consumer BEFORE the goods are purchased. Why do they put the limiting language inside the package? 'Cause someone might believe it has effect.)
 
Spent a lot of time beinhd a GLLD myself, although I didn't have to carry it! Did you have to go to 13F school, Toad?

I did both basic and AIT at Ft Sill. I was a 13F and still think that is one of the best jobs in the Army.
 
Ha!

I agree. I went from the Marines, into the ORANG as an 11 Bulletstopper, then transitioned to Ft.Sill for fister school to go active Army. I spent some time out at Ft. Carson before I went EOD, called for fire for the first 120's that ever showed up there. It was a good job, no doubt.

I had some good buddies who went Ranger to be fisters. They were NEVER home, very busy folks. :thumbup:
 
That waiver may cover small stuff like broken legs and even more serious accidents (slipping and breaking your back), but it won't cover a guide encouraging his client to move while said client dies of dehydration; that dog won't hunt.
 
:thumbdn: BOSS:thumbdn:

I was planning on taking a BOSS course some day. Now there's no way I'd ever take one. Letting that guy die was inexcusable. :thumbdn:
 
Last time I checked, a "One-A-Day" vitamin/mineral tablet has about the same minerals as a quart of GatorAide, less the salt and sugar. Pill+salt+sugar = a cheaper alternative.

What about potassium? After salt, that's the main thing lost in sweat, and I'd bet that vitamin/mineral tablets are way low in it. You need about 3500 mg a day, not counting extra for excessive sweating. And hypokalemia (too little potassium) will kill just like dehydration when exercising in the heat.

Lite salt substitute is one cheap alternative for a potassium substitute.
 
What about potassium? After salt, that's the main thing lost in sweat, and I'd bet that vitamin/mineral tablets are way low in it. You need about 3500 mg a day, not counting extra for excessive sweating. And hypokalemia (too little potassium) will kill just like dehydration when exercising in the heat.

Lite salt substitute is one cheap alternative for a potassium substitute.

I was not comparing a pill to the RDA (which is now 4700mg of potasium for an adult), but to Gatoraid. It would take about 60 pills or 40 guarts of Gatoraid to achieve to RDA. It just sems like the pills and some salt packets would take up less space in a survival kit if you are inclined to see supplements as important.
 
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