Managing expectations of edge retention

Edge retention is related to wear.
Edge holding is related to geometry. If it chips or rolls it's to thin to hold an edge for the task.
Just because "holding" creaps under the radar and nobody notices, doesn't mean it's right. When it becomes a standard flaw in definitions it dilutes language and communication towards anarchy.
 
Ad-hominem is actually a logical fallacy, so by implying the other person is weak and incapable, you're returning the favor.
You can cut an argument a lot shorter by citing your sources for the definition of edge holding vs. edge retention.
Pun very much intended.
There is a difference between proactive and reactive. Pulling the logic fallacy on reaction is a fallacy.
 
Edge retention is related to wear.
Edge holding is related to geometry. If it chips or rolls it's to thin to hold an edge for the task.
Just because "holding" creaps under the radar and nobody notices, doesn't mean it's right. When it becomes a standard flaw in definitions it dilutes language and communication towards anarchy.

"Cause Joe Busic said so." isn't good enough- such a high-minded intellectual as yourself probably already knows that.
It seems that you don't actually have sources, so you're not speaking with authority.
Now this crusade you're on in the name of precision seems more like for the sake of your own opinion.

Live, learn, cite your sources.
 
"Cause Joe Busic said so." isn't good enough- such a high-minded intellectual as yourself probably already knows that.
It seems that you don't actually have sources, so you're not speaking with authority.
Now this crusade you're on in the name of precision seems more like for the sake of your own opinion.

Live, learn, cite your sources.
Baiting out of laziness. I'm not going to do your homework.
 
I picked up a spyderco CBN stone and the instructions say to use it dry. Think I'll use it with water or similar from now on.
Never have I used my 2x72 to apply my secondary bevel, and I don't think that will ever change. Probably need to invest in some more sharpening tools soon. The stones on my Norton unit are getting cupped pretty bad and lapping plates are damn costly
 
Devin brings up a solid point on managing expectations, we would also be remiss NOT to point out that carbides and hardness are working in real world to prolong the actual cutting of the knife especially depending on what is being cut.

There are some folks in the community that think that "super steels" are some type of conspiracy to sell product and on the inverse of that we have folks that say that AEBL can't hold an edge.

Neither are true

Its important to the readers of this thread to walk away with a balanced perspective.

Rex 121 doesn't mean infinite cutting but there are certainly times when sharpening when you want to is better than sharpening because you have to.

There are always trade offs with everything.

There are times and places for sledge hammers, cold chisels, utility blades and scalpels, The problem in the knife community is all the knives look the same to the untrained eye with wildly varying opinions, preferences needs and uses for what ALL knives should be.

lets also keep things real, Geometry is more significant than steel for cutting ability vs durability also, so it makes isolating a steel discussion difficult when person A is talking about Steel X being insanely durable when its 0.020" BTE and has a false "15 DPS" that's actually convexed to +20 dps from freehand.

We as a community do need to increase effort to properly measure edge bevels using proper tools like laser edge goniometers so we can all confirm we are discussing the same things.
 
Baiting out of laziness. I'm not going to do your homework.
It's not my job to find the evidence to support your claim:
Holder of the burden
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.[1] This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence."
Source: Wikipedia

We've heard from an expert that no such definition exists.
You can't be bothered to provide evidence to the contrary.

now knock it off- you're detracting from this conversation.
 
I picked up a spyderco CBN stone and the instructions say to use it dry. Think I'll use it with water or similar from now on.
Never have I used my 2x72 to apply my secondary bevel, and I don't think that will ever change. Probably need to invest in some more sharpening tools soon. The stones on my Norton unit are getting cupped pretty bad and lapping plates are damn costly
Try Simple Green on your stones.

Many years ago I was involved in an experiment as sharpener and cutter, basically the muscle. Have a buddy that writes articles for outdoor magazines and he was working on an article about this. He has an extensive collection of custom knives from everybody you ever heard of back in the day. So I cut rope and I cut rope and I cut rope, 3/4” sisal rope to be exact. Literally by the trash can full and I don’t mean the one sitting at your desk but full sized contractor bag sized ones, and I cut rope and I cut rope. This was when there was this gem stone kinda sorta new way of forging (they said) and he’d been given a set of four of these pointy hard gemstone forged knives at a pig hunt where the knives had been introduced to the press. So he wanted to compare them to some other knives for this article. Anyhoo the protocol for this was I cut thin slices of rope with a 2x4 backer until the knife wouldn’t cut the rope. Then I hand sharpened it and cut until it wouldn’t cut, doing this three times. He scribed and took notes. I then belt sharpened the knife knocking the burr off on a buffer and cut till it wouldn’t cut and belt sharpened it again also going three times on each knife. We did this on a closet full of knives, some of mine included. They were all of similar size and grinds, apples to apples as much as possible. I wont tell ya all the details bout how I went through several 2x4s in three days, or how I filled up multiple contractor bags filled with cut up sisal rope. Or how my hand was so sore we were wrapping gauze around the handles and then vet wrap over the top of the gauze and I was wearing padded gloves, or how he bought the beer. Won’t bore you with the details but what I will tell you was there was absolutely no noticeable difference between hand sharpening and using the belt, none. Larrin and I discussed this here some years ago when I related this story another time for similar reasons. I too was surprised by the results cause before I made those eight gillion slices I would of told you that hand sharpening would be superior. What he said if I remembered correctly was that what we had proven was that done correctly, belt sharpening is certainly viable. Not superior but done correctly not inferior to hand sharpening either. What about those gemstone forged knives? Nothing specical there. Multiple knives out cut em, interestingly my friend had several of that companies regular D2 knives and every one of those out cut the gemstone forged ones. Anyhoo, I really haven’t hand sharpened since then. I kinda enjoy it but ole, achy, arthritic old hands say no.
 
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I'm still a beginner in the sharpening game (been doing it freehand for 44 years now). Like some of the rest of you, I "hear of" and read about knives that will continue to cut indefinitely, but . . . I've never actually seen one do anything even remotely close.

Managing expectation is a good thing. I think there also exists a wide spectrum among us for subjectively assessing if a knife is still cutting well.

Still fun to talk about it and read about it.
 
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I picked up a spyderco CBN stone and the instructions say to use it dry. Think I'll use it with water or similar from now on.
Never have I used my 2x72 to apply my secondary bevel, and I don't think that will ever change. Probably need to invest in some more sharpening tools soon. The stones on my Norton unit are getting cupped pretty bad and lapping plates are damn costly
CBN doesn't need cooling as it pulls the heat from metal and spreads it in the wheel. That's why electroplated CBN's on a AL wheel are the best. Assuming the correct sharpening direction towards the edge. Glued on plastic are cheap alternative for occasional sharpening but still will deteriorate fast. Diamonds need cooling as the heat negatively affects them. But, cooling doesn't hurt. :)
 
Do super steels make any difference?

Well the results were very surprising.

Two years ago I was curious what would happen if I gifted a Spyderco Military model in CPM REX 45, 8% carbide volume, 67.0 HRC and low fracture toughness
to a non knife geek, heavy knife user.

He was an interesting test subject to explore this question because never in his life has he spent more than $50 on a pocket knife and does not care about blade steel so their was no bias from him.

His most used knives were Buck 420HC, I met him when I was a professional knife sharpener and his knives would blunt completely smooth very quickly so I could see objectively his knives were being heavily used and why he checked all the boxes for an excellent candidate to further explore a curiosity.

Well, the knife was put through complete hell, I was surprised it was in one piece, what was most shocking was that the edge retention was subjectively and objectively better than softer, tougher steels he had experienced.

Without asking leading questions he explicitly stated,
"Yeah that's the best knife I've ever had, just keeps cutting"



Most knives in his use blunted to +1000g on the BESS tester, the softer tougher steels had little resistance to deformity and the edge would smash down in use quickly, I was surprised to see the edge under 500g Bess after the first YEAR.

This knife was only sharpened once when I met him again at Shot Show 2022 in Las Vegas at the Spyderco booth, it was sharpened to 200g BESS with the Spyderco sharpmaker using the diamond rods and finished on the white ceramic.

Its been almost a whole year since it was sharpened and it was nicely maintaining a sub 500g BESS edge with heavy use. NOT +1000g BESS with other steels I've seen from him, so there is real world evidence that the increased cutting edge retention seen in controlled testing does cross over to the reality, the problem is that these steels are expensive and difficult to process, heat treat, and you can't use Grandpa's arkansas stones.

Edge tested 1" from heel
Edge tested 1" from tip

Translation of BESS to paper cutting sharpness



In his perception, if the knife is still physically cutting it is still sharp. What the "super steel" did was it did not blunt completely smooth at the edge and it could still physically cut without extreme force and slipping compared to a "tougher" steel that would have blunted smooth with lots of physical cutting.

Of course, there are flaws in this account I'm sharing since we don't have an accurate account of everything being cut and how. However it seems we have quite a paradox in the knife community if controlled testing is invalid because its not real world and anecdotal "testing" is not controlled enough to deliver anything useable but bias we are left with non stop exhausting, un productive arguing.

The biggest take away I feel for readers is that one should give things a try first hand and see if it works or doesn't work for their preferences and uses.

Not everything needs to be a "super duper turbo" steel either; a sharp knives will cut things, but I'm sure we can all agree there are times when its nice that one doesn't have to stop a touch up the edge in the middle of work.

I'm pretty sure the CPM REX 45s low toughness would be better seen if we duct taped it to a poll and tried to cut a concrete wall in half, but there are probably better and cheaper tools for demolition work.
 
CBN doesn't need cooling as it pulls the heat from metal and spreads it in the wheel. That's why electroplated CBN's on a AL wheel are the best. Assuming the correct sharpening direction towards the edge. Glued on plastic are cheap alternative for occasional sharpening but still will deteriorate fast. Diamonds need cooling as the heat negatively affects them. But, cooling doesn't hurt. :)




... for the record I have burned the sh*t out of some knives accidentally taking a heavy cut with a CBN plated aluminum grinding wheel. Even using flood coolant I ran colors.


Pretty much any powered grinding can burn your edge.

We are a production knife shop. Powered grinding is a necessary evil but we do it at low speeds under flood coolant and it works pretty well. Industry standard is dry and often throwing sparks. That's no bueno. But I'm not convinced that sharpening by hand on a stone dry is going to damage an edge. At least not in the geometries that I work in.

But using a CBN plated aluminum wheel without fear because the aluminum is conducting the heat out of the cut is, I'm sorry, that's not accurate.
 
I picked up a spyderco CBN stone and the instructions say to use it dry. Think I'll use it with water or similar from now on.
Never have I used my 2x72 to apply my secondary bevel, and I don't think that will ever change. Probably need to invest in some more sharpening tools soon. The stones on my Norton unit are getting cupped pretty bad and lapping plates are damn costly
There seems to be misunderstanding in the posts here about why it says "no water" well in this case its because the cBN is mounted on a surface that can rust, the thinking was to embed the cBN into a different surface than what's typically used to improve tear out resistance, so in the specific case, they want you to use "no water" to prevent corrosion. I talked to Sal about his cBN stone in 2019 at the Eugene Oregon Knife show, he also bought one of my Vitrified cBN stone prototypes which was nice of him.



As you can see, I am using water, no one died, just be sure to dry the surface when done.
 
But I'm not convinced that sharpening by hand on a stone dry is going to damage an edge.
I would also be surprised by this. The apex is small, but steel is a good conductor of heat and there’s such a small amount of heat generated that I cannot imagine the apex changing it’s temper against the relatively cool surface of a stone. Maybe if I tried my fastest, pressing hard? Idk.
 
Now that is interesting


View attachment 2002322

Can one of the nerds tell me what I'm looking at here?


Craters from corrosion, it gets even weirder/ cooler if we look at lots of knives/steels with more magnification, this knife was left outside for 2 weeks in the rain, this damage however is not specific to CPM REX 45, I have some pretty shocking images from 52100, CPM 4V and even some stainless steels of pitting corrosion.
 
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