Manganese on Shallow Hardening (Hamons)

Just out of curiosity what is the Mn content in Hitachi White steel? Its my understanding that its very,very low alloy? Ive "heard" that its amazing for hamons?
Oh, Id also like to add though its not practical Phillip has some spec tests on some files that had 1.30% carbon and only 0.25% Mn..I know they will produce a beautiful hamon with almost no effort at all..
 
From one of the sources Stacy sent me, it shows this for White:

  • C 1,1 - 1,2%
  • Si 0,1 - 0,2%
  • P <0,025%
  • S <0,004%

So... no Mn at all? Or at least negligible if it's the case.
 
Stacy,
If a customer approaches a mill wanting 1070 with low Manganese it is entirely possible. The only impractical part of the whole process is ending up with a minimum smelt of 15,000 pounds and then having it sit on my shelf for 5 years. If you all got together and decided on a formula that you can all agree on there is no problem having it produced and rolled. A 15,000 pound smelt will give you 3 - 5,000 lb. billets. Each of them can be rolled to whatever 3 thicknesses you want from .065(CR) to 3/8"

As for Niagara, they are an independent rolling company and have no smelting capacity what so ever.
 
That is what I meant by the impracticality of the melt. It is a lot of money for a very specific use product. I must have Niagara confused with another company that does small batch electric oven melts.

If anyone in the US was going to do a special smelt for knifemakers, I would think running it with the formula of Hitachi white #1 would be the best bet. A while back someone tried to get an order up from Hitachi that fell apart. The guys willing to join in totaled over 1000 pounds, with many more interested. The price was high, and there could be only one size. In three sizes, 1.2% C, and very low/nil Mn I bet Aldo could sell the whole smelt in a very short time.

Aldo, I'll have to chat with you over this sometime.
 
Give me the formula. I've looked into this before and we have steels available that will match the Hitachi formula's very close if not dead on
 
Go Aldo! I've wondered about this confluence for a few years now. A formula for the white is shown in post 22.
 
Aldo - for what it's worth - Murray Carter's 2011 bladesmithing book lists all five classes of Yasuki's blue white and yellow paper steels as containing somewhere between 0.2 -0.3% Mn.

IIRC White#1 ran 1.20 - 1.40%C where White#2 topped out at 1.20%C but was otherwise identical.

I realize the PDF linked above doesn't list Mn on their version of W#2, but I'm going with Murray and common sense on this one. Not likely those commercial quantities are virgin steel (0.0% Mn) at the pricing I heard discussed.

Say it with me fellas >>> Go Aldo. Go aldo. go aldo...
 
Thanks Andy! When Stacy put up the formula I sat here and wondered. Apparently there is more then one White Steel. That particular one reminds me of the stuff we make in chimney pipe Stacy. :) Here is what is available from Buderus Mills in Germany. Some of these are actual stock items. Others would have to be made up special. Seeing as I don't have a Billet Inventory I would have to check with the mill on what is readily available. Buderus is capable of hitting certain Aerospace standards with less effort then other mills due to there smelting practices. They make very CLEAN steel mill.

What we are looking at are W-1 formulas and variations there of. W-1 is often spoke of as having carbons from about .70 to 1.40 carbon. The cold roll bar that we get in the US is primarily a 1095 formula with around 1% carbon. Most others are special formulas for specific uses.

C70U -
.65/.74 - Carbon
.10/.30 - Silica
.10/.30 Mang.

C80U -
.75/.85 - Carbon
.10/.25 - Silica
.10/.25 - Mang.

C85U -
.80/.90 - Carbon
.25/.40 - Silica
.50/.70 - Mang.

C105U -
.100/.110 - Carbon
.10/.25 - Silica
.10/,25 - Mang.

C125U -
1.20/1.35 - Carbon
.10/.30 - Silica
.10/.35 - Mang.

The second set of steels are similar to the ones above with the addition of .40 to .70 chrome with the highest Carbon formula being 1.35/1.50 - Carbon, .15/.30 - Silica, .25/.40 - Mang and.40/.70 Chrome.

Additionally there are a few formulas with Tungsten similar to what I am told are the Blue Steel formulas. One in particular is 115W8 with 1.10/1.20 Carbon, .15 - .30 - Silica, .20/.40 - Mng., .40/.80 - Chrome and 2.00/2.50 Tungsten. And finally a Vanadium Formula called 115CrV3 with 1.15/1.25 Carbon, .15/.30 Silica, .20/.40 Mang., .50/.80 Chrome and .07/.12 Vanaduium.

Of all of them the C125U looks pretty promising for cutlery and should throw some nice Hamons and the C70 and C80 should kick ass for swords. If Cutlery is where you're at I'm partial to the 115CrV3.(In my humble opinion.)

Aldo
 
Those all sound freakin' awesome Aldo.

For the ones that are stock items, are they something we could regularly order? And when you say that some of the others have to be made up special, what would have to happen to get them available?
 
Here are some numbers on the paper steels, from Hitachi.

viewer


viewer
 
Salem-

Heads up; the images in your last post above aren't being displayed for some reason. I've tried three browsers on three devices - all with the same result. I mention this because the shots in your other recent threads come through fine. (I dig the new ball mounted vise with extra mass!) Of course I'm mostly interested in what they list for Mn content.

All-

I am actually surprised by the lack of momentum on this thread. I had the impression that more than a few US and Canadian smiths crave the opportunity to work with the paper steels, yet when Aldo steps up to actually make something happen (a nasty habit of his I now know), nothing but crickets???

I'm going to write it off to thread drift and otherwise bad packaging of the new sideshow topic (my apologies to the OP for my part in that). I hope a new thread gets started and the discussion continues about developing reliable and affordable alternatives to the Yasuki steels.
 
I'd certainly be in for a hundred pounds of any of those steels. The C70U looks delicious for longer blades.

(100# might be a slight exaggeration, but if we got a smelt this clean I would stock up big time)
 
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The C105U looks great to me for kitchen blades, as does the C80U for longer and larger blades.

What worries me on specs like these is the Mn has a range of 250% to 300%. Take the C70U. .10% is really low...... .30% is almost normal. There will be a big difference in how those two HT as far as shallow hardenability.
I know they are ranges, but have rarely seen any come back at the lower end. If you had a customer ask for a knife between $100 and $300, and he said it was your choice, which one would you send?
 
Sorry for the delay guy's. Don, you brought up a good point. I sent out an E-Mail to my rep. I ran through all the grades they produce and sent a list of what I thought would be good steels in the High carbon, low alloy ranges and a few with some not so shabby alloying. Readily available would be anything they normally have in there billet inventory. 1 billet to 1 size. Billets can run from 5,000 to 8,000 lbs. each. If it is not in the Billet program you either wait on a potential load and piggyback a billet off it or you get an 8 metric ton(17,600 pounds) custom smelt done that yields you 3-5,000+ pound billets and the possibility of 3 different sizes. Typically about 4,500 pounds of each size.(To think, I was swinging wrenches 5 years ago!)

I will post the available grades as soon as the mill gets back to me.
 
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