Manix 2 CF/S90V

[gunmike1]

I was looking to buy a Chokwe and ended up getting a great deal on a Manix 2 S90V. I already like the design as I have a standard version, and as much as I've wanted to avoid S90V and it's evil Vanadium carbides (I prefer steels like M4 and ZDP they get extremely sharp for me at nice high hardnesses) I had to get it. I guess it was time to try a super Vanadium steel to see if like I thought I would sacrafice some extreme sharpness for unreal edge retention.

The knife arrived with flawless fit and finish. All of the great ergos and the great caged ball lock from the standard Manix carry over, but you get beautiful and very grippy CF scales, skeletonized liners that drop a lot of weight, and a FFG S90V blade with an edge thickness of .020"-.025", with and angle of just over 10 degrees per side. That is excellent geometry for a very heavy duty knife. The knife was sharp enough to pop some hairs; good but not as sharp as some of the tree toppers I've got from Spyderco. As a test I cut up a box into a huge pile of tiny strips with the factory edge and it felt like it didn't dull but a tiny bit. It was only scrape shaving by the end, but it cut almost as good as when it was popping some hairs. Very impressive stuff. I can picture being able to break down boxes or cutting up carpet a long time without needing to sharpen it.

I then did a full sharpening. The angle was very close to 10 degrees, as it only took a minute or two with a DMT coarse to set my 10 degree edge. A quick deburring had the knife popping hairs. I was very impressed with the sharpness at the coarse grit (the equivalent of a 160 grit edge at 20 per side), and I bet just at DMT coarse this thing will slice a very long time considering it was popping hairs and has a massive amount of carbides (with tons of Vanadium). I then went to DMT Fine, and it got slightly sharper but mainly refined the bevel to look a bit better. I then went to Shapton Glasstones. 1000 grit refined the edge well, but it still wouldn't get to tree topping sharpness like most of my other super steels at that grit. It popped hairs better and l started making a bit of a mirror polish. The 2000 grit stone took a bit longer than it does on even ZDP (no shock) to get a nice mirror polish started, but it was barely tree topping and not whittling hair like ZDP does by that grit. 8000 grit took much longer to get a very nice mirror polish than with any other steel. It was tree topping and whittling hair OK at this point, but again not as sharp and a bit hazier than my other super steels. 16000 grit brought out nice hair whittling and a pretty good mirror polish, again not as good as my other steels. My .3 micron lapping film took a while but refined the edge nicely to doing serious hair whittling. Last was .05 micron lapping film that brought it to a level of hair whittling where it severs a hair in two when you try to whittle it just by touching the hair, so it definately can get extremely sharp, but it needs much finer grits than you need to go with ZDP or M4 to reach the same sharpness. My guess is that I will be leaving the edge at a coarse finish as it gets very sharp at DMT Coarse but progresses slowly up in sharpness after that. The DMT coarse finish pops hairs and has serious teeth for aggressive slicing. I'll have to experiment and see how my polished edge does versus how the nice toothy factory edge did, then see if it's worth my while to polish the edge out like I did. A microbevel on a DMT Coarse will take me a minute, but going through all the grits will take probably 15-20 minutes if I account for switching out stones and flattening them. So far so good, I had the idea in my head S90V is a slicer steel that isn't big on a super polished edge like ZDP or M4 (why I avoided it until now), but it should cut with a relatively dull edge for a VERY long time before needing a touch up. I can definately see myself using this knife hard and being able to take out carpet, Sheetrock, and cardboard for a whole day of home improving without having to switch knives due to it getting dull. At hair scraping sharpness it slices better than most steels do at much higher sharpness, and it should keep slicing like that all day. S90V can do things that ZDP or M4 can't, but at the expense of not having extreme sharpness and being extremely sharp a bit longer like ZDP and M4 do. I still prefer to touch up steels more often if I can get a very high level of sharpness with pretty good edge retention, but there is definately a place for steels like S90V which can slice like a saw all day long (or so I think it will).

The bottom line is I really like this knife. Perfect fit and finish, ultra strong lock, good geometry, and wonderful ergos. The CF if very good looking while offering serious grip like a working knife should. I wish it was M4 so I could have a good bit more toughness and sharpness, but S90V definately seems like a steel that will perform impressively. I need a well rounded collection, so I guess a super Vanadium steel will work just fine for me.

Mike

Edit to add bad pics in bad lighting with a bad camera:

Knife open:



Knife Closed:



Close up of Carbon Fiber and Ball lock:



Blade Shot:

 

[Dagon]

Excellent, hyper-detailed review. I received mine, and didn't do a lot with it yet. While it is of course perfectly put together, I have a few less than enthusiast opinions, and these are clearly very personal taste matters:
- yes the CF is grippy, but I don't think it feels different than normal G10. Perhaps on really long term? I had hoped for "woven" CF like the Sage 1 which I think is more luxurious.
- I do experience a certain feeling that it lacks soul, to my taste there is a certain blandness. A bit like a big Lexus. Perfect engineering, but rather characterless. I don't have that feeling with a Military for example.

 

[cotdt]

Nice review. How about a face-shaving test for steel comparisons? Our faces are more sensitive to fine, smooth edges than splitting hair, which is actually quite easy to do.

 

[knarfeng]

As always, a pleasure to read.

 

[gunmike1]

Thanks for the compliments. I'm going on a little trip to Disneyland, maybe I'll shave with my Manix 2 CF, Stretch 2 CF, and say Benchmade Rift with the same finish on the edge to compare. I know all will easily shave, it would be a fun comparison. A couple years ago in Disneyland I did an almost complete shave with a small sebbie re-heat treated to 60.5 RC. The 3 blade disposible razor I was using mangled my face when I was starting that shave, so I threw it out and pulled out the knife. I went slow and got a very smooth shave without cuts or irritation. S90V seems likely to leave irritation, ZDP has been smooth for me in the past, and I've never used 154CM to shave with.

Since the Manix 2 wasn't designed as a straight razor i will put a lot more stock in how it cuts and performs as an HD cutter than how it shaves. So far it is a very likable knife, I just love the ergos and geometry, so it will be fun to use it hard. Maybe I will beat on some 2x4's and save tons of cardboard to do a good test with it. I will need to save up a garage full of cardboard for a head to head test with S90V vs. ZDP 189, but I would love to do it. I bet S90V wins from my first impression, but we'll see. ZDP 189 has such great edge retention it is amazing to think of another steel possibly out cutting it. I can also grab some rope to throw in, 5/8" manilla should do. Hopefully I'll get a tiny bit of free time to sneak in some testing. Based on my past testing however I doubt I'll get a chance to do much more than EDC cutting comparisons, as testing takes a lot of time and effort.

I can see people not liking the CF having a G-10 type feel, but for it's working mission I feel it is appropriate. You could always sand it down to smooth it out and bring out more of the great look of the CF weave. I come from the point of view as the knife as a tool so I personally wouldn't do it, but I can understand why people would like it to be more differentiated at the price point it's at. As for being soulless, that is again a personal thing. As a working tool the perfect ergos, great jimping and great cutting ability, all with a monstrously strong and very smooth lock just speaks to me when I use it. Looking at it, you just don't get how good of a design this knife is, as with many Spydercos. Putting it in your hand and using it is where you "get it" with this knife.

Mike

 

[Kershaw 2110]

very nice and in depth review

 

[Dave Rishar]

I can see people not liking the CF having a G-10 type feel, but for it's working mission I feel it is appropriate.

Indeed. Smooth for show, grippy for a pro. This has been the best CF handle that I've ever held. It's textured much like G-10 as you said, which in my mind is just about perfect for what I do.

You observations were very interesting to me. I've been using the Manix 2 at work for about a week and a half now, taking over for an S30V Millie. Interestingly enough, the Millie seemed to hold its edge better overall. Both lose effectiveness quickly on fiberglass but the Millie would easily strop back to an adequately sharp condition on a pants leg. The Manix will not. However, after the Manix (quickly) loses a bit of initial sharpness it seems to stop dulling at that point, no matter what. Unfortunately that level of sharpness is not what I'm looking for.

I'm not as knowledgeable about metallurgy as most are so I can only guess at what's happening. My theory is that the Millie is not wearing so much as deforming (hence simple stropping keeping it going) while the Manix is experiencing something else. I'm considering leaving the Manix with a less polished edge and seeing how that works for me. Theoretically, a "toothy" edge ought to maximize S90V's strengths while simplifying sharpening, no?

Good knife regardless. I miss the old C95's handle (I have rather large hands) but Spyderco seems to have gotten most of the changes right. I haven't made my mind up yet about S90V. S30V may be a better fit for what I'm doing, but what I'm doing is admittedly a bit unusual.

 

[sodak]

Great review as always Mike, thanks! I'll have to look this one up, I hadn't heard about this particular CF before. Sounds like a great knife, I'd love to see some pictures, especially of the handle. I'm also anxious to see how the shaving goes, that's a great test for sharpness, especially on the chin - at least for me!

 

[Josh K]

Nice review. I can see your experience with S90V compares well to Yab's. I find that I almost have to work to dull it up. Very good performer in the edge retention category.

 

[shunsui]

Assuming you have the S90V Mule, do you notice any differences in the Mule and the Manix2's S90V ?

 

[zhangmaster12]

Assuming you have the S90V Mule, do you notice any differences in the Mule and the Manix2's S90V ?

Made my the same company, Syperco, so probably the same HT. Probably no difference.

Great Review GunMike! Where do you get lapping film? I remember you posted a site somewhere, but I forgot

oh, one more thing, how long did it take to go through all those grits?

 

[theonew]

Now that's my kind of review, awesome job :thumbup:
I ain't afraid of no vanadium carbides and look forward to trying some S90V. Thanks for the information.

 

[cotdt]

Made my the same company, Syperco, so probably the same HT. Probably no difference.

Reason why he asked the OP is because Sal said that he ran the Mules harder than the production Spyderco knives, something close to the maximum usable hardness of the steel. I am curious about this question myself.

 

[gunmike1]

I don't have an S90V Mule, as I said in the first post I've been avoiding the super Vanadium steels until now. I would be interested in what RC the Manix 2 S90V is, and may send it off later for testing (and possible re-heat treating if I get crazy). I avoided the steel for the same reasons Dave Rishar brought up, it seemed like a steel that would lose sharpness very quickly, then cut at a low level of sharpness forever. In cardboard for me that low level is plenty sharp to actually keep cutting like a sharper knife, and from Yablanowitz's posts it appears S90V will act similar in sheetrock as well (being able to keep on cutting despite losing it's high level of sharpness). Dave says it's baseline level of sharpness that it degrades to and stays at is unsatisfactory in fiberglass, which I can definately believe. I don't cut much fiberglass, but you never know what you might run into. Having a pocket hone is something I've been wanting for a while, and it seems that may be the only solution to freshen up an S90V blade, as unlike lower abrasion resistant steels it won't touch up by stropping on jeans or cardboard like S30V or VG-10 can. IMO cardboard, rope, and sheetrock would be cut with adequate ease when S90V plataeus out in sharpness, but I'll have to test out that theory. I generally hate cutting with dull blades, which is why I usually carry many. I also really like ZDP 189 and M4 because unlike S90V they hold on to their very high sharpness at least for a little while (all steels fall of fast, but S30V for instance drops down in sharpness much faster than M4 for me), but they won't keep on cutting cardboard forever like the blade is a saw as the Manix 2 S90V did for me though. Actually, ZDP holds on pretty well, it just seemed to me that the S90V had a more agressive slcing edge as it dulled which made it seem sharper than it was on cardboard for me. I believe that is that point of having all of those Vanadium carbides, to keep the blade cutting like a mini saw for a really long time. If fiberglass blows it down to an unacceptable sharpness then that is one material that S90V won't show a significant advantage to most other steels on, but it appears to be great for cutting other abrasive materials well for a really long time. I still prefer the extreme sharpness of M4, but I know it won't keep on going like S90V on marathon sessions on cardboard. Not that M4 doesn't have excellent edge retention, it's just that S90V seems to just have amazing edge retention on most things it cuts. The question for me is whether I'll be able to stand extended cutting with a dull knife, or if I just do like I do now and switch out knives when one gets dull (I usually carry a few knives on me). I am thinking that since S90V seems to slice like it is sharper than it actually is I will be OK cutting for very long periods with it (the great knife design begs you to use it), but my CPM D2 Millie or my C95 Manix could be nice HD alternatives that get sharper and touch up easier.

I guess the touching up brings up the question of what pocket sharpener to get. I really like how Spyderco Ceramics get my knives sharp, so I was thinking of getting the Double Stuff. However, it won't sharpen some of my steels great (I get microchipping occassionally on hard steels with my ceramics), so I'm wondering whether I should get a DMT pocket sharpener in Coarse/Fine or something like that. The DMT will sharpen anything, but for most steels that double stuff can get them back to extreme sharpness pretty wel while the DMT will leave a pretty toothy edge. For S90V that toothy edge would seem to fit it though. Any input on a pocket sharpener is appreciated.

Oh yeah, I get lapping film in 1 and .3 microns at tools for working wood. I get .05 micron lapping film here: http://www.psidragon.com/products.asp?cat=412

Mike

 

[cotdt]

Very interesting report, Mike.

I also do a lot of fiberglass cutting to mold custom car audio parts. High carbide steels like S90V seem perfect for that task, though of course fiberglass quickly wears down any knife steel. My 52100 Mule has already lost 4mm of metal at the edge.

They have some DMT wallet-sized diamond sharpeners that work great for portable touchups. Even the finest ones would ruin a mirror polish, but they work.

 

[Dave Rishar]

FWIW, I do have a Mule in S90V that's only been used around the house for cardboard, paper, etc. I've had it for about a month now. It has not yet needed resharpening.

I couldn't say whether or not the HT's are similar or not because they haven't been tested side by side; the Mule lives a very nice life and the Manix gets thrashed. I only wanted to repeat that what I'm doing at work is not necessarily indicative of what the average owner will experience.

To put things in perspective, our issued knives (generally various inexpensive kitchen knives made from 420) require resharpening every few cuts if clean lines are desired and will become dull to the point of uselessness in minutes if not sharpened continuously. S90V (and S30V) are outperforming them by a large margin as one would expect. Likewise, S90V holds on to its sharpness a bit longer than S30V -- again, just as expected. The interesting thing here to me is that while S30V will dull more easily, it can also be refreshed so much more easily that the difference is more than compensated for.

It's too early in the game for me to have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I will say this: I'm not about to sell all my S30V for something else any time soon. We're splitting hairs at this point and the S30V, for me, happens to be perfectly acceptable already.

It will be interesting to see how the S90V pans out with a coarser finish.

 

[gunmike1]

Very interesting report, Mike.

I also do a lot of fiberglass cutting to mold custom car audio parts. High carbide steels like S90V seem perfect for that task, though of course fiberglass quickly wears down any knife steel. My 52100 Mule has already lost 4mm of metal at the edge.

They have some DMT wallet-sized diamond sharpeners that work great for portable touchups. Even the finest ones would ruin a mirror polish, but they work.

Interesting, so you don't have trouble with the S90V on fiberglass? I'm just going by what Dave Rishar said, which of course I believe is exactly his experience. If others have different experiences I'd love to hear them. In all likelyhood it is because Dave, like many of us, demands a higher sharpness than the general public does for the job, so what most would consider a workable edge he considers too dull to work with. I know I get that way, as I prefer an edge to at least be able to shave for me to work with it, but S90V was only scraping hair but still slicing cardboard like a champ, so it may yet change my mind on that. S90V does on the surface seem perfect for the super abrasive stuff, again I guess I just need to do my own testing to see what happens with my particular knife.

I will probably pick up a pocket sharpener, and even if it is a coarse grit I will just microbevel, so it may not destroy my whole mirror polished bevel. It is easy enough to refine a microbevel when you get more time after the job is done. For all I know at this point I may end up liking a toothy edge on S90V anyway, I know Phil Wilson gets excellent results with relatively coarse edges on S90V and 10V (and most every other steel he uses).

Mike

 

[Jason B.]

I did a little cut test with my S90V mule a few weeks ago, I chopped on hardwood for about 10 minutes, cut some drywall, some manila rope and some real nasty cardboard. This is the damage.

The edge had visibly flattening but would still cut like a much sharper knife.
Edge was microbeveled around 15* and photo was at 400x

 

[sodak]

...Having a pocket hone is something I've been wanting for a while, and it seems that may be the only solution to freshen up an S90V blade, ...

I've got a couple that I'm going to send you. Let us know what you think, your reviews are invaluable! :thumbup:

 

[cotdt]

I did a little cut test with my S90V mule a few weeks ago, I chopped on hardwood for about 10 minutes, cut some drywall, some manila rope and some real nasty cardboard. This is the damage.

The edge had visibly flattening but would still cut like a much sharper knife.
Edge was microbeveled around 15* and photo was at 400x

Why would you do such a cruel thing to such a nice blade? You must be stopped.

Haha just kidding. That looks about as expected. Any comparisons to S30V?

Interesting, so you don't have trouble with the S90V on fiberglass?

I haven't tried yet. I've been using my 52100 Mule as my fiberglass cutting knife because it's tough and quick to resharpen.