Manix and Strider SNG Why?

[WYK]

Cliff -

Have a pic?

If titanium is alloyed and heat treated, it's hard enough to break with good tools, let alone your hands. I'd love to see the pic.
I have a Kershaw plastic lockback that would disagree with your statement, especially when compared to my titanium liner locked Lonewolf.

WYK

 

[gajinoz]

I have no interest in getting into another "my knife is better than yours because ..." argument but something grabbed my attention. Somebody mentioned grip and that the Mannix is better for them. This alone is an interesting subject and could easily overcome some other perceived shortcomings of a knife, making it a "better" knife for you as compared to another similar one.

I don't have a Mannix but I do have some other Spydercos as well as a Sebenza. I have just recently got an SnG. Regardless of whether the SnG is somewhat stronger than the Sebbie or a Spyderco, I have come to prefer using it for the simple reason that, for me, it feels the most secure in my hand of any folding knife I have ever handled. Yes, there may be other knives that are more secure, but I haven't personally handled them so I don't know. Strangely, I think it feels so secure because I'm left handed and the grippy G10 clings to my palm while my fingers get a good grip on the clip. It feels like you couldn't get this thing out of my hand with a crowbar. This, apart from any other qualities, makes it, for me, the best knife.

Obviously there is no point in having the worlds best grip on some trashy POS but, when you get down to comparing similar top quality knives, that could be all the difference you need.

 

[3Guardsmen]

I was the one who mentioned grip, and I know it's a highly subjective subject since we all have different hand size. I'm glad you mentioned grip again because I want to let it be known that I feel the SNG has an excellent grip. However, for me, the Manix has the perfect grip. You really owe it to your hands to wrap them around a Manix ! Handle one and let me know what you think.

This is how I personally rank my knives in terms of grip (starting with the best, most secure grip):
1)Manix
2)Mini-Commander
3)AFCK
4)Para-Mil
5)KFF (Kasper/Crawford)
6)SNG
7)Spyderco Goddard
8)BM 710

Cheers,
3Guardsmen

 

[gajinoz]

! Handle one and let me know what you think.

I'd love to but there is no chance of handling knives before I buy them where I am. It will have to wait until my US trip next year!

Unless of course you'd like to send me yours for a while .......

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If titanium is alloyed and heat treated, it's hard enough to break with good tools, let alone your hands. I'd love to see the pic.

True, but you don't actually crack the full thickness of the liner, that would indeed be difficult, way back when Nemo and Fred reviewed a Military there was a section where Fred viced it and subjected it to heavy loads and it held up fine.

However that isn't the problem with liners and integrals, it is instability under torques which can lead to only a small fraction of the face engaged and thus the strength is minimal, torqued far enough they unlock completely. It isn't a strength issue, it is a stability one.

You can see a similar problem on some locks even without torques. Some liners and integrals barely engage when new, almost no overlap. With these, even with hand pressure the knife would just fold. You can solve this problem by a few hard inertial openings to set the lock.

-Cliff

 

[SteelDriver]

The Manix would be more comparable to the SMF, not the SnG. I don't have the exact dimensions on hand but the Manix and SMF both weigh around 6 oz, both are close to 9" OAL opened, and the Manix blade is about 1/4" shorter than the SMF (measured tip to scale). The Manix has a thinner blade than the SnG, though.

 

[Murky Depth]

Both are about the same size
Both are FLAT GROUND S30V
Both have BLACK G10 SCALES
Both with pocket clip

The Manix is a lockback
The SNG is a Framelock

Both Great Brand names that keep their value.

One is three times the price of the other.

WHY?


Please try to answer the question with out emotions. Lets forget about Spyderco and Strider. IS the SNG stronger than the Manix? Does it look better? Are the materials used superiour?

What?

Perhaps on materials alone, the SnG would be more expensive due to the Ti, but definitely not 3x more. As far as the disparity in price goes, I think that Strider has the right & privelege to charge as high as their buying market will allow. It's not like they're about to go bankrupt or anything. Is the Benz E-series is 20 grand better than than a BMW 5-series in terms of performance & functionality? No. But as long as their market patronizes their products, they will remain more expensive than BMW's.

 

[WYK]

I surely do understand, Cliff. Some designs are more likely to break under certain conditions. But I was more generic than I should have been. I was talking about the SNG's titanium frame lock - I would be surprise to see that break. With proper torquing, any folder will fail, but breaking titanium is something different altogether. But you shouldn't be torquing a folder, anyways, or ANY knife for that matter. A forged 5/16th thick fixed blade Bagwell bowie will fail with enough torquing.

This being said, I thought I understood you BROKE the lock, not torqued out of it. If this is incorrect, I apologize. I, personally, do not like frame locks for the feel. I would rather have a thick liner lock surrounded by titanium liners as I haven't been able to make one of these fail in normal use/abuse(and I use em as pry bars for cracking open window sills on cars to sneak in lock pick tools etc.). In fact, the S-30V blade on my Lonewolf cracked before the lock gave(which is why I I had to regrind it).

WYK

 

[Cliff Stamp]

With proper torquing, any folder will fail ...

Many lock types are insensitive to torques, the blade cracks before the lock is effected. Lockbacks are like this, so are compressions, the Axis is similar from what I have heard, have not used them. Of course you can break the blade on any folder with enough load, and crack the handle and piviot apart similar, but this is arguing around the point which is that liners/integrals can be broken under much lower forces.

For example you can break any knife under impact if you hit it hard enough, as all knives will at some point fracture. However does this mean if you want to make a large chopping bowie you should use M2 at 66 HRC vs L6 at 58 HRC because both of them will break at some point. Of course not because the L6 one will take a lot more to break and thus be functional over a much wider scope of work.

...BROKE the lock, not torqued out of it

Once you start to torque (rotate the blade around the axis running from the point to the butt), the liner can start to disenage, the liner can break across the face now when vertically loaded because there is only partial engagement and thus it shear cracks with little load. Once it has been cracked it won't lock up securely again as part of the liner face has broken off.

-Cliff

 

[rover]

If by torque you mean rotate, how often does one torque a knife. I don't twist a knife around much when I use one.

Oh yeah, and just because there's more cushion for the pushin' doesn't mean you should bang it like a screen door in a tornado.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't twist a knife around much when I use one.

Then it doesn't matter to you obviously.

Oh yeah, and just because there's more cushion for the pushin' doesn't mean you should bang it like a screen door in a tornado.

If you don't need the extra stability/strength there are more optimal designs.

-Cliff

 

[rover]

Do you use your right hand or your left hand for testing knives Cliff?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Both, I used to be always right handed until a few years back when Ghostsix mentioned off hand word and it seemed to be that it might be a decent idea to have a working level of ability with my left hand.

-Cliff

 

[WYK]

Once you start to torque (rotate the blade around the axis running from the point to the butt), the liner can start to disenage, the liner can break across the face now when vertically loaded because there is only partial engagement and thus it shear cracks with little load. Once it has been cracked it won't lock up securely again as part of the liner face has broken off.

-Cliff

Is this how you made the SNG fail? Did the titanium crack at this point?
I'm real curious because I am starting to work with titanium in my knives.
WYK

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Is this how you made the SNG fail?

Buck/Strider. I asked Mick if their customs were any better on the forums, he declined to answer, but it is a general problem, with integrals and liners. Yes, Ti is is strong, however it isn't infinitely resistable. Even Mission's Ti can be broken, and it would not be very difficult to do so if it was so thin.

The problem is that people focus on the thickness of the liner which is *NOT* the issue. What is the issue is the thickness of the liner which is engaged. If the liner is 1/8" thick, but only 1/128" is engaged to the blade, then the full thickness of the liner obviously isn't a functional build point because it isn't actually supporting the load.

For example, lets assume that you as a normal person could curl say 50 lbs with your right hand, this is easily within your ability and causes you no great strain. So if someone placed 50 lbs in your arm at any point you could easily take the strain and lower it to your side.

However, lets say someone did this but you tried to stop the weight with only your pinky finger. Now the strength of your full arm doesn't matter because only your pinky is supporting the weight and thus your pinky pretty much cracks off.

-Cliff

 

[allenC]

Considering the price difference verses the performance difference, the Manix is defintely the better choice.

As for the lock strength:
The Manix wins this one also.
The problem with frame-locks and liner-locks is that the locking-bar to tang geometry must be just right or the lock will fail regardless of the thickness of the lock-bar.
And since there is direct metal against metal contact, that geometry will change as you use the knife.
And worse of all, it will appear totally locked-up, giving no indication that the geometry is compromised until your fingers are on the ground.

Allen.

 

[BH]

What I don't understand is you guys are so concerned about the lock failing. Do you consistantly push on the spine of your blade?, I find that when I'm cutting something, the blade is pushed in the opposite direction, so I'm more worried about the stop pin failing. I'm guessing this crowd are some super hard core users. If you're using you knives that hard, maybe you should consider a fixed blade. Let me finish this with I'm a plain ol everyday average joe knife user, not a tester, abuser, or professional ass kicker. This is so comical at times though, I mean come on, is anyone here really getting a whole bunch of liners to consistantly fail during normal usage? I can break a crow bar if i set my mind to it, but is it something I ever do or want to try to do?

 

[rover]

Buck/Strider. I asked Mick if their customs were any better on the forums, he declined to answer,

You asked if their customs were any better than the mass produced Buck? Dude, that is one stupid question that you could probably answer for yourself. Do you realize that Strider does not make the knife you are talking about?

 

[Thomas Linton]

Buck/Strider. I asked Mick if their customs were any better on the forums, he declined to answer,

You asked if their customs were any better than the mass produced Buck? Dude, that is one stupid question that you could probably answer for yourself. Do you realize that Strider does not make the knife you are talking about?

Does your question (comment?) assume that custom lockblades are always superior in quality to all production lockblades?

 

[allenC]

BH,

If you're more concerned about the stop-pin failing then why not just use a slip-joint and alieve your fears?

But in my opinion, a locking folder is much more forgiving if I do something careless (being only human and all).
And I don't think that it's too much to ask of a knife maker that the lock be reliable every single time.
And I think lock reliability is much more important than lock strength.

That's why I like lockbacks so much.
They have an excellent reliability history, and liner-locks/frame-locks don't.
So why make the compromise?

Allen.