MAP pricing: Has it affected your buying habits (i.e. buying less, switching brands, etc.)?

[FortyTwoBlades]

while the terminology we are using may be wrong its basically the same thing for the most part. one can argue all they want but in the end its basically legal loophole price controlling/fixing attempts, just done sneaky.

people can like it and pretend its all fair and square etc if they want, i refuse to like anything that isnt a true free market system. i wont fall for tricky but legal retail language bouncing all around what is basically legal price controlling/fixing attempts.

There are a lot of distinctions between different price control methods that may seem small but they really do make a big difference. As far as legality goes, there are some references to get you started here. Hope that helps sort things out a bit!

Also, regarding the "free market" thing...you do realize that this *is* the free market in action? That the manufacturer is making the decision to impose these requirements and that people are free to take it or leave it? Just food for thought on that front.

 

[whp]

MAP pricing may provide some short term benefit to a company. But over time it will provide an advantage to competitors who can provide similar quality items without retail price controls beyond their wholesale prices. Unless basic capitalism doesn t work any more.

My biggest regret is Spyderco, who, with MAP policy, gave up one of their biggest competitive advantages, high quality relative to price. Now , Spyderco may still provide good quality and innovation, but the price is no longer a relative bargain. Hate to see it. Feel like I m a fading Spyderco fan.

I ve already given up on Benchmade.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Spyderco's MAP is really quite reasonable, especially compared to many other companies imposing MAP on their products. From what I can tell, their price inflation has little to do with MAP and more to do with their pursuit of the premium market with fancier and more technologically challenging designs.

 

[jbmonkey]

There are a lot of distinctions between different price control methods that may seem small but they really do make a big difference. As far as legality goes, there are some references to get you started here. Hope that helps sort things out a bit!Also, regarding the "free market" thing...you do realize that this *is* the free market in action? That the manufacturer is making the decision to impose these requirements and that people are free to take it or leave it? Just food for thought on that front.

all lead to price controlling pretty much. i like a free market myself. course im not in this business like you are so i come from a consumer only standpoint, not from a dealer standpoint at all.

that said you are a great dealer and ive used ya many times. always willing to pay for good service and quality which you are one of the best at. just like a free market. some makers and dealers obviously dont...so be it.

edit part.......yeah small pieces of a free market but hardly in a use of an actual free market. so we can go into a many post discussion(oops already did) on why all the lobbyist pushed laws and regulations get in the way and how it stops competition and on and forward to where we are today, as all of it is relevant to what we are discussing.......but ill shorten it to we are not seeing a true free market as its meant to be and that's a fact. what we have is far from what a true free market is. you already know this though.

 

[Sigsog226]

One good thing i did see with MAP is with Spydercos. It didnt effect price all that much from what i could tell. And those gun stores and big box stores that sold them at full retail started selling them at map instead. It seemed to have persuaded them to go with a better price.

 

[22-rimfire]

Spyderco's MAP is really quite reasonable, especially compared to many other companies imposing MAP on their products. From what I can tell, their price inflation has little to do with MAP and more to do with their pursuit of the premium market with fancier and more technologically challenging designs.

That's good to know. I believe that Spyderco is simply pursuing the premium market as well. And who generally is most interested in the premium market? Hobbyists I would think mostly. Who really needs some special run with some super duper steel unless that is the only thing that is available in a particular knife? Spyderco seems to cater to both markets and that's a good thing.

They are going to have to do something about the pricing on the Seki (Japanese made) VG-10 stuff. It is getting a little crazy on some models for what has become a common place steel.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

all lead to price controlling pretty much. i like a free market myself. course im not in this business like you are so i come from a consumer only standpoint, not from a dealer standpoint at all.

that said you are a great dealer and ive used ya many times. always willing to pay for good service and quality which you are one of the best at. just like a free market. some makers and dealers obviously dont...so be it.

My big point was that these are things that--in a free market system--these manufacturers are free to impose. They are free to refuse to sell to dealers who do not follow their policies. That's part of a free market, too.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

One nice thing about MAP is that it does encourage competition on a basis other than pricing. Value added service, customer service, and curation are all ways of standing out from the crowd. Too many fools try to be price leaders when they aren't able to maintain it sustainably and crash and burn, but it doesn't matter because people will find them and snatch up those low prices even as that dealer is driven out of business by costs they failed to consider. MAP does help hold those idiots at bay, because they have an overall dampening effect on the health of an industry. MAP should not be set unreasonably high, but internet retail has very low margins as a general rule, and so instituting a fairly low MAP like Spyderco that just helps keep margins from sinking to stupid levels helps protect everyone, including consumers, because it helps keep differentiated dealers' collective doors open where they can provide a range of service options to their customers. There are too sides to the coin, but too far to either end of the spectrum is bad for industry. Gotta' find that sweet spot! And many companies are currently in the process of trying to find what that sweet spot is, with some having more success than others in that regard. It's a complicated balancing act.

 

[jbmonkey]

My big point was that these are things that--in a free market system--these manufacturers are free to impose. They are free to refuse to sell to dealers who do not follow their policies. That's part of a free market, too.

yeah i agreed with your small few pieces of a free market, but you know as well as i do we do not have a free market system at all.

 

[Cory Hess]

I was speaking with a small local dealer a couple of weeks ago. He had said that he had gotten in trouble for going below MAP at a recent show. He didn't have any prices on any knives, and when people would ask he was selling them for below MAP. He thought he was in the clear because he wasn't advertising prices. Another dealer caught wind and called the manufacturers to complain. He was still selling CRK, Benchmade, Protech, and Microtech and those companies had told him that they were OK with it. He did say that one manufacturer dropped him as a dealer as a result of this, but I don't remember which one that was. I was just there to look at CRKs and he was trying to sell me on other knives, so I was trying to be polite while at the same time steer the conversation back to CRK.

The point is that there might be some manufacturers out there that will drop you as a dealer if you sell for lower than MAP even if it's not advertised. Or this dealer was full of it. Either one is possible. It was the first time I met this guy, so for all I know he lies like a dog.

 

[Deinos]

I was speaking with a small local dealer a couple of weeks ago. He had said that he had gotten in trouble for going below MAP at a recent show. He didn't have any prices on any knives, and when people would ask he was selling them for below MAP. He thought he was in the clear because he wasn't advertising prices. Another dealer caught wind and called the manufacturers to complain. He was still selling CRK, Benchmade, Protech, and Microtech and those companies had told him that they were OK with it. He did say that one manufacturer dropped him as a dealer as a result of this, but I don't remember which one that was. I was just there to look at CRKs and he was trying to sell me on other knives, so I was trying to be polite while at the same time steer the conversation back to CRK.

The point is that there might be some manufacturers out there that will drop you as a dealer if you sell for lower than MAP even if it's not advertised. Or this dealer was full of it. Either one is possible. It was the first time I met this guy, so for all I know he lies like a dog.

If it is similar to other industries (and I am sure it is), than they were most likely dropped for selling below MAP.

Many years ago, before I started my career, I worked at a large electronics/appliance dealer. This dealer was known for undercutting their price to increase market share at that time, and we would fairly consistently make below MSRP deals to acquire customers of competing chains.

There was a "forbidden" list, however, and you would be subject to a corrective action (up to being let go) if you made a deal below MAP (which was also the MSRP in most cases) on those specific brands. When those manufacturers would come in to demo a new product, they would reinforce this with their discussions on maintaining their reputation for quality via reinforcement of their pricing, coming just short of explicitly stating they would punish the store/chain if that pricing was not observed.

 

[whp]

My big point was that these are things that--in a free market system--these manufacturers are free to impose. They are free to refuse to sell to dealers who do not follow their policies. That's part of a free market, too.

All vendors are able to sell their products under whatever conditions they want to impose. That is the free market. I suspect that if other factors are somewhat similar, the vendor that doesn't impose map will have a competitive advantage over the one that does. Be the product is knives, guns, lawn mowers or whatever.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

All vendors are able to sell their products under whatever conditions they want to impose. That is the free market. I suspect that if other factors are somewhat similar, the vendor that doesn't impose map will have a competitive advantage over the one that does. Be the product is knives, guns, lawn mowers or whatever.

If that were the case I think it would be less common to see manufacturers adopting the policy. It's actually become something of the new norm and I expect it to continue. But that's conjecture on my part.

 

[Wunderbar]

No more Benchmades or Emersons for me. I have a budget and at those prices I'd spend the money on/toward guns.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I think Benchmade's biggest problem has been brand stagnation. Their knives are expensive even when comparing MSRP value vs. other major manufacturers of equal or greater quality and their designs have been mediocre for years. They're not bad, just...meh. They could probably tweak their MAP structure, too, but it's not their biggest problem. Opinion on my part, of course.

 

[Skywalker31]

Depends on how it's handled...

I've bought three new Benchmades from dealers since late 2013 when they started strictly enforcing MAP (LE 908BK-1501, LE 710-1401, and a 710D2 after it was discontinued and the price dropped to $120). Problem there is they also jacked all the prices up by ~33%, with no warning, effective immediately (a couple dealers held out for about a week), right before the holiday shopping season. Kick in the teeth to all their knife afi customers. Less value and no respect. Unless it's a LE 615 in CPM-M4, I'm not really buying new BMs.

Spyderco announced theirs in Nov 2015, effective Jan 2016, and had no price increase beyond enforcing max 40% off MSRP (mostly where prices already were from non-BigRiver sources) across the board the first year, while also acknowledging possible incremental increases in years to come. Much better way to handle it, and I'm still buying plenty of Spydercos... liking the K390 Urban and CTS-204P Millie in the last few months, and I think I'm going to pick up one of the new backlock Manix2s soon too.

If I want to give someone a knife as a gift now, it's a Spyderco or a USA-made Kershaw. Used to be an Endura, a Shallot, a MiniGrip, a BM 586 for my girlfriend and a 732 for my dad...

... yeah, that's an Endura, a Shallot, a Native5, or a Manix2/PM2 these days.


I don't really buy ZT or CRK; not as familiar with their policies or history so I can't comment.

 

[Skywalker31]

I think Benchmade's biggest problem has been brand stagnation. Their knives are expensive even when comparing MSRP value vs. other major manufacturers of equal or greater quality and their designs have been mediocre for years. They're not bad, just...meh. They could probably tweak their MAP structure, too, but it's not their biggest problem. Opinion on my part, of course.

Also agree with this. Crooked River is the only new design that I really care for.

 

[Knife Outlet]

I think it is important to understand that MAP is minimum advertised price, not minimum selling price. Just call your favorite dealer and ask for a better price. Buy over the phone. Companies like Spyderco force us to adhere to their pricing but they have no control over a phone order any more than they control an in-store transaction. No need to let the MAP issue get you down. Call your dealer.

 

[Danke42]

Does that include sticker prices in store? Or do you have to tag stuff high?

 

[Skywalker31]

I think it is important to understand that MAP is minimum advertised price, not minimum selling price. Just call your favorite dealer and ask for a better price. Buy over the phone. Companies like Spyderco force us to adhere to their pricing but they have no control over a phone order any more than they control an in-store transaction. No need to let the MAP issue get you down. Call your dealer.

Per comments made by several dealers back in 2013 and several members who tried to call for lower prices, this does not work for Benchmade. Dealers were told specifically that the MAP was the minimum selling price and undercutting that would get them dropped. I think RevDevil pointed out somewhere that it's really more of a unilateral pricing policy than an MAP. The only exceptions to Benchmade's policy seem to be discontinued models and limited editions/dealer exclusives.

Here's the original thread from on here when it happened: http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/benchmade-pricing-seems-to-have-changed.1129817/

The first post points out that they called KnifeCenter directly and that didn't work. The only reason anyone had any heads-up they could do anything with was Knifeworks and CutleryShoppe leaving their coupon codes up for about a week before they had to take them down (that was when I finally picked up a 581; thanks again Jeff ).

And here's the only comment from Benchmade in the whole thread, denying that they've just kicked prices up 30% (it's #370 in the thread if you want to see it in context):

Our price levels HAVE NOT changed. Our dealer base and customers of all shapes and sizes are of the upmost importance to us and we will continue to pursue the best possible avenues to support them. Please know that we are listening and appreciate your feedback.

~Benchmade Knife Company

Don't piss on my leg and then tell me it's raining.


Again... it really, really depends on how it's handled. Spyderco was communicative, informed in advance, and the initial implementation didn't affect prices nearly as much. Benchmade was pretty much the exact opposite. (That's how you know Sal's a smart fellow; he can learn from other people's mistakes, not just his own. )