MAP pricing: Has it affected your buying habits (i.e. buying less, switching brands, etc.)?

Cory Hess said:
Agreed. However, they are competitors of other knife retailers.
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Right, and if a cabal of Cutlery Retailers in Omaha banded together and said "all knives in our stores will sell for $400.00 each" they would be price fixing. If they just sell at the prices stipulated in the written agreement they'll have with the knife maker they're not price fixing.
 
stabman said:
The dealers aren't setting the price though.
They aren't colluding with each other; in fact, it was them trying to undercut each other that led to manufacturers enacting MAP!!!

So you have a single entity setting the price; that is the opposite of competitors having an agreement.
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You have a single entity forcing all the dealers to sell at a given price. The customer is not allowed to find a better price. It is price fixing and it is illegal. MAP used to be illegal but was legalized by a supreme court decision.

A knife manufacture can legally dictate minimum ADVERTISED prices but cannot dictate minimum selling prices. It is what it is. Benchmade breaks the law if they try to regulate selling prices. MAP, though, is fine with the law. In the knife industry there are MAP prices that are the same as recommended retail prices and some with margins so thin the dealers sell above MAP. It is not a guideline for end users. I can assure you MAP is not there for the benefit of end users. It is there to protect big retail chains from the internet. As much as businesses should put faith in the free market, they will tend to prefer protection whenever and wherever they can get it.
 
I don't mind MAP pricing at all. Most companies do it very reasonably and the ones that do generally have a product that I feel falls in line with the price offered. However, anytime I've tried to buy a Benchmade their prices are far too high to give more than a glance to. I know if I spend the same $300 on a Spyderco, the quality is going to be several times higher - for me.

If the price is generally forced to be the same at nearly every site, then I as a consumer don't have to worry that I might be paying $100 more for my Sebenza or Spyderco than what it's selling for at a different retailer. I'd be very interested in seeing how it's impacted sales that sites choose to do, if sites have dropped certain brands because of it and if Reate, WE and such are going to force MAP pricing to be redone at some companies.
 
Danke42 said:
Right, and if a cabal of Cutlery Retailers in Omaha banded together and said "all knives in our stores will sell for $400.00 each" they would be price fixing. If they just sell at the prices stipulated in the written agreement they'll have with the knife maker they're not price fixing.
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I tend to agree with you. It just doesn't jive with the FTC's definition. All that's required for the FTC to consider it price fixing is that more than one competitor enters into an agreement to set a minimum price. MAP pricing is an agreement to set a minimum price that multiple competitors have entered into. They don't have to enter into an agreement with each other. That agreement can be with anybody. A manufacturer for example.
 
Danke42 said:
Right, and if a cabal of Cutlery Retailers in Omaha banded together and said "all knives in our stores will sell for $400.00 each" they would be price fixing. If they just sell at the prices stipulated in the written agreement they'll have with the knife maker they're not price fixing.
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Yes, that is price fixing. I've never seen a dealer agreement that required stipulated selling prices. Such an agreement would have no validity in a court of law. Dealer agreements with MAP requirements are common. If manufacturers are pushing agreements with selling price requirements, the dealers should get together as a group and sue the manufacturer as a group. They would win without difficulty. Few dealers, however, are going to do that.
 
Knife Outlet brings up an important distinction. I've been writing as if I believe that the reports I heard from one dealer claiming that they lost a brand for selling below MAP. If that report was untrue, then everything I've written is invalid. Next time I buy a new knife I'll call around and see if any dealers are willing to sell for under MAP. I'm honestly curious as to what their responses would be. The dealer I referenced earlier was willing to sell me knives for under MAP prices. He just didn't have the particular knife I was looking for. If I decide on a Benchmade in the future I'll probably go back to him and pay under MAP, unless somebody else is willing to beat his prices. ;)
 
Was it price fixing when I put my books up for sale in some local stores, and the contract set what price they would sell for and how much I would get?
Am I an evil overlord for wanting to get $2 of profit when a book gets sold?

So hard to tell these days. ;)
 
If more than one book store entered into that same agreement then the FTC would say yes. I wouldn't say that you're an evil overlord for that reason, but maybe for other reasons? I don't know you well enough to say one way or the other.

I really didn't think that anybody was saying that anybody was an evil overlord. More just commenting on the definition of price fixing. Maybe your definition of an evil overlord is different than mine or you take these things more personally than I do. Either way, I'm sorry that you made that astronomical leap. I'll make sure that I agree with you in all cases from here on out so that nobody has to be accused of being an evil overlord. Thanks for teaching me a great life lesson. ;)
 
Cory Hess said:
I'll make sure that I agree with you in all cases from here on out so that nobody has to be accused of being an evil overlord. Thanks for teaching me a great life lesson. ;)
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Excellent. :)
The first thing you can agree with is that every human should send me 20% of the money in their bank accounts (or hidden in their house).
Cash or gold are both acceptable means of payment.
What the heck, I'll accept silver bars too...I am flexible. :thumbsup:
 
I'll do my best to convince people here to do that. My neighbors are probably going to question me requesting them to send money to "stabman". I'll do my best though.
 
MAP pricing drove me away from Benchmade after 15+ years of buying many of their models. It drew my attention to ZT. For the same price as an overpriced Benchmade, you can get MUCH higher quality from ZT.

Overall though, very few knife enthusiasts vote with their wallets, so MAP pricing really won't hurt any knife company.
 
stabman said:
Was it price fixing when I put my books up for sale in some local stores, and the contract set what price they would sell for and how much I would get?
Am I an evil overlord for wanting to get $2 of profit when a book gets sold?

So hard to tell these days. ;)
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Don't delay, eternal happiness is just 2 dollars away.
 
Knife Outlet said:
Yes, that is price fixing. I've never seen a dealer agreement that required stipulated selling prices. Such an agreement would have no validity in a court of law. Dealer agreements with MAP requirements are common. If manufacturers are pushing agreements with selling price requirements, the dealers should get together as a group and sue the manufacturer as a group. They would win without difficulty. Few dealers, however, are going to do that.
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There's another MAP thread; or maybe it's this one (so hard to tell; so many MAP threads lately) stating that sticker prices in store must confirm to MAP. Any take on that?
 
Belly said:
MAP pricing drove me away from Benchmade after 15+ years of buying many of their models. It drew my attention to ZT. For the same price as an overpriced Benchmade, you can get MUCH higher quality from ZT.

Overall though, very few knife enthusiasts vote with their wallets, so MAP pricing really won't hurt any knife company.
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All consumers vote with their wallets whenever they make any purchase. No way out of it.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
All consumers vote with their wallets whenever they make any purchase. No way out of it.
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You're right. I should have been clearer. What I should have included was that many people on this forum, over many years, have complained about price vs. value, and yet companies like Benchmade continue to thrive.

There always seems to be enough people who still buy regardless of the price increase (think of the price of the new bronze titanium axis lock model or their new balisong model), regardless of the reduction of value from one year to the next (think of the price increase of the grips and the 2017 newer models the rubber/plastic handles).

Ironically, I still love Benchmade, and I'd love to get that new model 781 or the 87, but they're just st too much for what you get. I know many others on this forum have complained about the prices, but I'll bet those 2 models are very successful. Yes, they do vote with the wallets, whether it's buying or not buying, but with so many people complaining about MAP, fit and finish, and higher prices, you'd think Benchmade would be hurting. They are definitely not. They are thriving.
 
Belly said:
but with so many people complaining about MAP, fit and finish, and higher prices, you'd think Benchmade would be hurting. They are definitely not. They are thriving.
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There is the perception that tons of people are complaining about these things, because people who complain about things get noticed more easily.

Who is going to start a thread that says, "Well, today I am still not minding current trends in the knife world. Yep, not bothered today, last week, or the week before that. Things are okay. :thumbsup:"
No one does that; they start threads that complain about something, or rave about something, but not to say "Meh, things are fine."
 
stabman said:
Was it price fixing when I put my books up for sale in some local stores, and the contract set what price they would sell for and how much I would get?
Am I an evil overlord for wanting to get $2 of profit when a book gets sold?

So hard to tell these days. ;)
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No, $2 isn't much on a book sale as far as I'm concerned. I got a Kindle to save money and add some convenience as I read a lot. One particular publisher's books sell for about $12 each as a download to kindle. Most are much less. It is in essence MAP pricing. You can bet that the publisher and the author is making a lot more than $2 on the book. I have read that $6-$8 was a common royalty number for hardback books.

Many here are okay with MAP pricing on many knives. So, that is certainly not complaining.
 
To clarify on the legality of BM's policy (regardless of whether or not I'm a fan of it) - it is legal for them to unilaterally set a minimum price at which their products may be sold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_policy

Basically, they can announce their desired resale prices in advance, and then they have the right to choose not to deal with those who don't comply. No contracts or agreements come into it.
 
Knife Outlet said:
You have a single entity forcing all the dealers to sell at a given price. The customer is not allowed to find a better price. It is price fixing and it is illegal. MAP used to be illegal but was legalized by a supreme court decision.

A knife manufacture can legally dictate minimum ADVERTISED prices but cannot dictate minimum selling prices. It is what it is. Benchmade breaks the law if they try to regulate selling prices. MAP, though, is fine with the law. In the knife industry there are MAP prices that are the same as recommended retail prices and some with margins so thin the dealers sell above MAP. It is not a guideline for end users. I can assure you MAP is not there for the benefit of end users. It is there to protect big retail chains from the internet. As much as businesses should put faith in the free market, they will tend to prefer protection whenever and wherever they can get it.
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Interesting points.
Seems reasonable that all retailers outside the internet would like MAP. The consumers usually are the ones that prefer unregulated price competition.
 
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