MAP Pricing

[Reitwagen]

I also avoid companies that have MAP pricing policies. It breaks my heart because one of those companies is a former favorite of mine.

Exactly.

 

[Boru13]

Take the political discussion to the appropriate forum.

 

[HappyDaddy]

I've told this story before, but it explains why as a small non-knife business I appreciate MAP in some instances and why it ultimately benefits my customers, and of course, my business.

So I'm a pool guy. It's no secret that big box stores have made competing in the chemical market pretty much impossible unless I offer what I hope to be exceptional service and expertise.
To further compound this, hard goods like pumps, filters, parts, etc are all available for sale lower online that I can buy them from distribution. Why do I go through distribution? Well, I dont have 1 million dollars sitting around for purchasing. Distribution are basically banks holding credit for small businesses these days. I call it it the Wimpy (from Popeye) way of product procurement. I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a pool pump today...or more likely net 30.

OK so to my point on MAP. The internet is a messy free for all. It just is. It is highly unregulated. There are multiple ways to work around pretty much any standard traditional business practice. When you are just reaping the benefits of price, it's really easy to fly that Free Market flag. When you dont have to worry about overhead, building insurance, building maintenance, fair employee wages, and you dont have the absolutely irritating audacity to want to go home with a small piece of profit for yourself...well then, foam about the mouth about MAP, I guess. Here's how it helps me, help YOU.

So, you can buy a particular pump online, well below what I can purchase it for. Companies use it as a loss leader. The manufacturer likes that they are selling product, sure. However it also devalues the PERCEIVED quality if it keeps getting driven into the dirt. They are expected to be cheap now even if they are more expensive to manufacture. It also alienates the brick and mortar store because they cant compete against a loss leader. It really pisses off distribution who buy the bulk of their product to resell to the brick and mortar. So the low hanging internet fruit isn't that sweet...well except for the end user. Ridiculous pricing for incredible product? Hell yeah! The little guy and the middle man who drive and stabilize the market? Screw those guys. Free market...FREE MARKET!!

Enter MAP. A particular manufacturer offers at least a partial line of their highest quality product with an internet protected MAP. I hypothetically buy something for $220. Amazon/Large Online Retailer probably gets it for, I dunno $195. We both have to ADVERTISE, not sell, it at $325. So I have the potential to make $105 dollars. Big box can make $130. Fair enough for me.

What this does is get people in my store instead of just buying online. I can help educate them on product, explain the warranty to them and why as an authorized dealer i can give them both a parts and labor because of my relationship with distribution, let them know that I have parts available, and offer to file the utility company's paperwork for an energy efficiency rebate.

So because the playing field was at least competitive, I can offer my customer a better product with more fringe services that saves them even more money. But remember, this isn't some handout. I gotta work for their business. I have to know my stuff, answer their questions, offer the above-and-beyond. On top of that, I am totally allowed to sell my MAP product at whatever I choose. Higher, lower, at a loss, whatever. It's just a tool that protects product integrity and, to be a bit hippy dippy, cultivates a relationship between customer and business owner that isn't as common anymore.

MAP isn't this be all boogie man. Like others have said, wages, materials, tariffs, etc. You all pay for those in what you buy. If you dont believe that and tell me you have a business degree I'm going to give you a bit of side eye.

MAP inspired me to try out ZT. If I could buy a ZT online cheaper than at a brick and mortar, I probably would not have bought one. The online price would have been too tempting over the brick and mortar pricing but I dont spend more than $100 on a knife without handling it first. My local hunting shop carries them. I held it, I flipped it, I loved it. $249 there or $249 on Amazon. I got to help out a local business and have been back about 8 times for a ZT since and purchase all my guns/ammo from them.

MAP is a tool. It's not great but it's not evil. For those crying bloody murder, just remember there is someone out there than can do what you do for less. Got a raise this year? Why? You got along fine with what you were making. Might need to do some shopping around to keep the costs down. It's a free market, ya know.

For people who read it and understand it, your post just laid out most of the reasons that MAP/Retail(Resale) Pricing Maintenance, etc., are, if done right, very often pro-competition. It seems that some MBA programs would benefit from reading it as well.

 

[halden.doerge]

I've told this story before, but it explains why as a small non-knife business I appreciate MAP in some instances and why it ultimately benefits my customers, and of course, my business.

So I'm a pool guy. It's no secret that big box stores have made competing in the chemical market pretty much impossible unless I offer what I hope to be exceptional service and expertise.
To further compound this, hard goods like pumps, filters, parts, etc are all available for sale lower online that I can buy them from distribution. Why do I go through distribution? Well, I dont have 1 million dollars sitting around for purchasing. Distribution are basically banks holding credit for small businesses these days. I call it it the Wimpy (from Popeye) way of product procurement. I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a pool pump today...or more likely net 30.

OK so to my point on MAP. The internet is a messy free for all. It just is. It is highly unregulated. There are multiple ways to work around pretty much any standard traditional business practice. When you are just reaping the benefits of price, it's really easy to fly that Free Market flag. When you dont have to worry about overhead, building insurance, building maintenance, fair employee wages, and you dont have the absolutely irritating audacity to want to go home with a small piece of profit for yourself...well then, foam about the mouth about MAP, I guess. Here's how it helps me, help YOU.

So, you can buy a particular pump online, well below what I can purchase it for. Companies use it as a loss leader. The manufacturer likes that they are selling product, sure. However it also devalues the PERCEIVED quality if it keeps getting driven into the dirt. They are expected to be cheap now even if they are more expensive to manufacture. It also alienates the brick and mortar store because they cant compete against a loss leader. It really pisses off distribution who buy the bulk of their product to resell to the brick and mortar. So the low hanging internet fruit isn't that sweet...well except for the end user. Ridiculous pricing for incredible product? Hell yeah! The little guy and the middle man who drive and stabilize the market? Screw those guys. Free market...FREE MARKET!!

Enter MAP. A particular manufacturer offers at least a partial line of their highest quality product with an internet protected MAP. I hypothetically buy something for $220. Amazon/Large Online Retailer probably gets it for, I dunno $195. We both have to ADVERTISE, not sell, it at $325. So I have the potential to make $105 dollars. Big box can make $130. Fair enough for me.

What this does is get people in my store instead of just buying online. I can help educate them on product, explain the warranty to them and why as an authorized dealer i can give them both a parts and labor because of my relationship with distribution, let them know that I have parts available, and offer to file the utility company's paperwork for an energy efficiency rebate.

So because the playing field was at least competitive, I can offer my customer a better product with more fringe services that saves them even more money. But remember, this isn't some handout. I gotta work for their business. I have to know my stuff, answer their questions, offer the above-and-beyond. On top of that, I am totally allowed to sell my MAP product at whatever I choose. Higher, lower, at a loss, whatever. It's just a tool that protects product integrity and, to be a bit hippy dippy, cultivates a relationship between customer and business owner that isn't as common anymore.

MAP isn't this be all boogie man. Like others have said, wages, materials, tariffs, etc. You all pay for those in what you buy. If you dont believe that and tell me you have a business degree I'm going to give you a bit of side eye.

MAP inspired me to try out ZT. If I could buy a ZT online cheaper than at a brick and mortar, I probably would not have bought one. The online price would have been too tempting over the brick and mortar pricing but I dont spend more than $100 on a knife without handling it first. My local hunting shop carries them. I held it, I flipped it, I loved it. $249 there or $249 on Amazon. I got to help out a local business and have been back about 8 times for a ZT since and purchase all my guns/ammo from them.

MAP is a tool. It's not great but it's not evil. For those crying bloody murder, just remember there is someone out there than can do what you do for less. Got a raise this year? Why? You got along fine with what you were making. Might need to do some shopping around to keep the costs down. It's a free market, ya know.

Well said, sir. Why do many folks stubbornly deny this is beyond me.

Aaaand....The villagers will now be coming for you directly. Pitchforks and torches, all purchased at deep discounts through Amazon will be there in abundance.

 

[Someone1]

Take the political discussion to the appropriate forum.

With this thread in mind, would you please define where the discussion of knives and distribution practices and minimum advertised price policies relating to the law end and general political commentary begins?

I really don't know. This is a nebulous topic that touches many facets of society and i don't know how we can discuss MAP, or clones, or tariffs, or foreign labor costs, without referring to the politics behind the topic.

Are you asking for these types of topics to remains shallow and vapid? Or are you saying to refrain from topics that discuss knife business practices? I really just want to know where the line is drawn. Are we allowed to discuss bullshit that doesn't matter and if someone says that there's an agenda across the spectrum of business, that is over the line even though it addresses the topic at hand? Or are we only allowed to say "here is a knife produced by massdrop, designed by Ferrum Forge, and made by WE in China and none of you can discuss what makes the knife good or bad as it relates to the economy." What about Ganzo? Can we not degrade and insult them for their counterfeiting efforts and how that messes with the economy at large?

I'm genuinely not being a smartass. I really want to know where the line is because i don't see one, as long as the topic generally revolves around the business of knives. This topic and everything I've read or posted in it revolves around knives and the knife market, making it a "general knife discussion."

For whatever it's worth, there aren't many threads I've seen that have been called educational or thought provoking, but this has been called just that. And i agree with that. It IS thought provoking and educational. I don't understand why it would need to be stifled. It's been civil as far as i can tell, but i have several obvious troublemakers ignored. I don't want to cross a line. In order for me to cross a real line, there needs to be more of a line than one put in place by trolls and troublemakers. In my opinion, thought provoking and educational topics relating to the forum at large need to be left alone and the trolls and troublemakers need to be put into their own place rather than entertained and threads that inspire thought and education need to be entertained rather tha. stifled.

 

[craytab]

This is crossing the line into politics:

Sorry i disappointed you. I don't believe Daniel had anything to do with buying or selling brands at retail.

Sorry Daniel. I believe your liberal mentality has affected your common sense. I know you probably don't like to hear someone saying you're wrong, but you're wrong. I don't know how else to put it. You seem like a nice guy but your opinions are wrong. Whatever that's due to, i couldn't say. I'm sure whoever granted your degree had America's best interest in mind, like most colleges teaching about SJW politics and global hegemony and crushing mom and pop stores. At least colleges teach now overtly teach that feelings are more important than logic.

With this thread in mind, would you please define where the discussion of knives and distribution practices and minimum advertised price policies relating to the law end and general political commentary begins?

I really don't know. This is a nebulous topic that touches many facets of society and i don't know how we can discuss MAP, or clones, or tariffs, or foreign labor costs, without referring to the politics behind the topic.

Are you asking for these types of topics to remains shallow and vapid? Or are you saying to refrain from topics that discuss knife business practices? I really just want to know where the line is drawn. Are we allowed to discuss bullshit that doesn't matter and if someone says that there's an agenda across the spectrum of business, that is over the line even though it addresses the topic at hand? Or are we only allowed to say "here is a knife produced by massdrop, designed by Ferrum Forge, and made by WE in China and none of you can discuss what makes the knife good or bad as it relates to the economy." What about Ganzo? Can we not degrade and insult them for their counterfeiting efforts and how that messes with the economy at large?

I'm genuinely not being a smartass. I really want to know where the line is because i don't see one, as long as the topic generally revolves around the business of knives. This topic and everything I've read or posted in it revolves around knives and the knife market, making it a "general knife discussion."

For whatever it's worth, there aren't many threads I've seen that have been called educational or thought provoking, but this has been called just that. And i agree with that. It IS thought provoking and educational. I don't understand why it would need to be stifled. It's been civil as far as i can tell. I don't want to cross a line. In order for me to cross a real line, there needs to be more of a line than one put in place by trolls and troublemakers. In my opinion, thought provoking and educational topics relating to the forum at large need to be left alone and the trolls and troublemakers need to be put into their own place rather than entertained and threads that inspire thought and education need to be entertained rather tha. stifled.

 

[DavidZ]

I want to thank everyone who has submitted their thoughtful ideas regarding MAP pricing. I appreciate all of the different perspectives regarding this policy. It has really opened my eyes and hopefully has given us all something to think about. I do wish that I lived near a brick and mortar knife shop so that I too can benefit from the personal service that only they can bring to the customer. It would save me a ton of money as well, because as in another thread I started awhile back, a lot of times I buy the knife just because I wanted to see it in person. Then it ends up on the sale forum here, unused.
From my standpoint, who lives in a very rural area, in order to feed my addiction I rely on internet retailers exclusively. With MAP pricing and the reluctance of any of them to negotiate when asked, the price might as well be fixed. The only thing I look for now, is an internet retailer that does not collect my state sales tax. My favorite one has just started to collect my state sales tax. I now have one less to shop from unless I am willing to ante up another 6%. However, that is a topic for another thread and another time.
Thank you all.

 

[ArchVV]

It's becoming a little Reddit-y in hur.

 

[halden.doerge]

This actually ended up way better than these MAP threads usually do. Good job, everyone.

 

[Horizon7]

There are anti-dumping laws that protect the economy. It keeps China or whoever from manufacturing and selling products in the US at a loss just long enough to destroy their competitors. Once their competitors go out of business, the foreign manufacturer is free to set whatever price they want.

Look at solar panels. They're a wildly popular product. China was manufacturing them and shipping them to the US and selling them at a huge loss which was putting all other solar panel manufacturers out of business. The government of China was subsidizing this practice in order to boost their own economy at the cost of everyone else's. Once all of their competitors who do not receive government subsidies go out of business, the Chinese businesses, and the Chinese government, are free to charge everyone in the world whatever they want for a wildly popular and oftentimes necessary product.

So trump instituted high tariffs on solar panels from china and ordered massive penalties against the companies dumping solar panels on the American market to protect Americans from the predatory Chinese government and companies. Short sighted consumers balk and whine and complain about higher prices because they don't see how business works. They want the lowest price possible even if it wrecks the economy. They're hurting their kids and grandkids by being selfish and stupid.

So controls are put into place to protect the health of the system. If the controls can be implemented by private individuals, so much the better because individuals almost operate more efficiently than the government.

But you always have the short sighted people complaining about prices. But if given their way then the system collapses into a monopolistic oligarchy where people have no other option than to deal with people who can and will gouge them.

If you question it just look at your electric bill. Do you have one option or several? If you have one option and one option only, i guarantee the price you pay for electricity is higher than people in a different area who can choose between providers.

What about startup internet companies? Huge corporations have it on lock down. You cannot start an internet providing company because the huge corporations will implement policies and prices that undercut the small guy and the corporations can sustain those losses for a time until the small startup bows out because they cannot compete. Then the internet company goes right back to gouging you once your area is free from competition. I'd like to see come controls there that fostered competition, but some services just can't be controlled like that. But tangible goods like knives can be and it benefits us all in the long run.

Brilliant. I read this 3 times so I can regurgitate it later.

 

[22-rimfire]

....I do wish that I lived near a brick and mortar knife shop so that I too can benefit from the personal service that only they can bring to the customer. It would save me a ton of money as well, because as in another thread I started awhile back, a lot of times I buy the knife just because I wanted to see it in person.

From my standpoint, who lives in a very rural area, in order to feed my addiction I rely on internet retailers exclusively. ....With MAP pricing and the reluctance of any of them to negotiate when asked, the price might as well be fixed. The only thing I look for now, is an internet retailer that does not collect my state sales tax. My favorite one has just started to collect my state sales tax. I now have one less to shop from unless I am willing to ante up another 6%.

The companies that use MAP pricing, the minimum price is essentially fixed. I am lucky in that I have two good knife dealers within an hour and half drive. One is about a 20 minute drive. Having knife dealers other than the big box sporting goods stores is a nice thing and one I appreciate. Many don't have the big box sporting goods stores close by. I don't know if it saves me any money as I do have to pay sales tax, But to me, it's worth it to handle the actual knife you are buying. I still acquire knives that I later don't want to use for whatever reason. But I don't sell them. Most of the knives I buy that are MAP priced are Benchmades and I usually end up buying at a large local sporting goods store. But I do have choices.

This has been a pretty good thread overall and educational. I always looked at MAP pricing from the customer point of view versus the dealer point of view. Both are valid perspectives.

 

[cbrstar]

Sorry didn't read the whole 6 pages so if i'm repeating what's already been said please forgive me.

To me MAP pricing is no different then any dealership or francaise pricing.

I don't want to pay a diffent price for a burger from one McDonalds to another, just because one likes the sight of my face more.

Amazon is a entirely differnt situation. As to me they sell a lot of gray market material. So it's old stock that some dealership couldn't sell, and would be on sale in the first place. Then there's the huge issue of all the fake Spyderco's that i've read about that snuck their way onto there. Which is something buying from a reputable dealer wouldn't happen.
To me the peace of mind is worth the extra 10 bucks.

Here in Canada if feels like the MAP pricing has broken down as prices are all over the place. My Dragon Fly had a $40 price difference between two dealers.

 

[bubinga]

The scam is this--people buy the real one from Amazon and a fake from Alibaba or some other site with the fake one.
They keep the real one and send the fake one to Amazon for credit, taking advantage of their lenient return policy and that no one apparently checks this stuff on their end.
Caveat emptor, everybody. You can avoid fakes by avoiding Shamazon altogether.
Really, how difficult is it not to shop there?

As for MAP, the "free markets" crowd should be reminded that if MAP didn't exist, in many cases there'd be one dealer--guess who.
Once they demolish their competitors, they get to price it at whatever they want.
Even with MAP, guess who wins when everyone is the same price?
I'm not a purist (two foreign cars here) but enough is enough.

 

[sharp_edge]

The scam is this--people buy the real one from Amazon and a fake from Alibaba or some other site with the fake one.
They keep the real one and send the fake one to Amazon for credit, taking advantage of their lenient return policy and that no one apparently checks this stuff on their end.
Caveat emptor, everybody. You can avoid fakes by avoiding Shamazon altogether.
Really, how difficult is it not to shop there?

As for MAP, the "free markets" crowd should be reminded that if MAP didn't exist, in many cases there'd be one dealer--guess who.
Once they demolish their competitors, they get to price it at whatever they want.
Even with MAP, guess who wins when everyone is the same price?
I'm not a purist (two foreign cars here) but enough is enough.

This saying about Amazon knives has been quite widely spread here. I am not defending Amazon or suggesting it as top dealers, but I just wonder how often it happens (buyers swap real deals with fakes and then return, and then Amazon went ahead sell them). I have bought about 10 folders and fixed blades in the range of $20-$80 from it and never got a fake.

 

[mwhich50]

I was wondering what was going on with Condor's crazy online prices. It's a shame. I really like Condor designs, but won't pay $100+ for non-USA/tool steel knives & machetes.

 

[jbmonkey]

This saying about Amazon knives has been quite widely spread here. I am not defending Amazon or suggesting it as top dealers, but I just wonder how often it happens (buyers swap real deals with fakes and then return, and then Amazon went ahead sell them). I have bought about 10 folders and fixed blades in the range of $20-$80 from it and never got a fake.

it happens. got a fake from them in a real box and got a cheaper Kershaw stuck into a more expensive Kershaw box. Amazon took them back and gave me credit but it's a huge problem. I've had it happen twice in a handful of knife transactions. I dont buy knives or much else from them anymore. they need to fix their massive flaws before I'll shop there for knives or much else
meanwhile the dealers who support this site usually arent much more. their support on issues is as good if not better and they check inventory returned for flaws user damage and fakes, far better than Amazon can or does.

 

[mwhich50]

The scam is this--people buy the real one from Amazon and a fake from Alibaba or some other site with the fake one.
They keep the real one and send the fake one to Amazon for credit, taking advantage of their lenient return policy and that no one apparently checks this stuff on their end.
Caveat emptor, everybody. You can avoid fakes by avoiding Shamazon altogether.
Really, how difficult is it not to shop there?

As for MAP, the "free markets" crowd should be reminded that if MAP didn't exist, in many cases there'd be one dealer--guess who.
Once they demolish their competitors, they get to price it at whatever they want.
Even with MAP, guess who wins when everyone is the same price?
I'm not a purist (two foreign cars here) but enough is enough.

Is there enough dishonest people to affect the market in this way?
I bought a limited edition Cold Steel Ti-Lite from a Walmart, or Amazon seller. The original owner had marred the heck out of the pivot, and lock area trying to bend the super sticky liner lock. The shippers didn't notice, or care. They accepted the return. I have had a few other serious problems with these type of sellers. I won't buy $50+ knives from big box online stores anymore. It's too 'hit and miss'.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I was wondering what was going on with Condor's crazy online prices. It's a shame. I really like Condor designs, but won't pay $100+ for non-USA/tool steel knives & machetes.

They're still one of the best values out there for their given features. It's just the value ratio on them is a bit less astronomical than it used to be. The good news is that their fit/finish/QC are worlds better than they used to be. Their wood and micarta handles are more contoured than most knives in those materials a decent amount above their price point, the tapered blades on many models are an uncommon and normally very costly feature, and the sheaths are a not-insignificant part of the cost, as well. But, of course, that doesn't mean we have to be happy about price increases.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Since its run its course, and we've wandered, knives are probably the least of Amazon's problems. Fake SD cards, USB cables, fragrances, supplements, the list goes on and on. You think Benchmade or KAI have pull at Amazon, try Samsung and Louis Vitton! We barely count, and that exchange program goes both ways. They do have to get their house in order, but they are happy to eat loses on the retail side for now. When they stop, then things change.

 

[Stays Sharp]

I know that there have been a few threads discussing this policy of minimum advertised pricing. However, the question I have that has not been answered is..... just because a certain manufacturer has imposed MAP pricing for their products, does not mean that they cannot be sold for less. They just cannot advertise a lower price. They can give it away if they want. Has anyone attempted to get a knife from one of the internet retailers for less than the advertised price? I just have, and they said that contractually cannot sell it for less. If that is true, that would be price fixing, which is illegal. In this case, I am sure the retailer was just hiding behind the manufacturer and making them the bad guy. Is my logic wrong? If no one requests a lower price, than it really amounts to price fixing. What say you my forumites?

OP, here is a caveat...

Prior to MAP enforcement, many popular dealers were able to "add cart for price" or "enter coupon at checkout".

Truth is, online dealers appear to be mandated to follow MAP.

Also, I have contacted all of my favorite dealers such as CS and KW and said that the companies dont allow pricing below MAP UNLESS its for disco liquidification. Only one dealer and an Ebay authorized seller as of now is willing to cut the price for me because I asked.

This is a problem for me because I do not have any brick-mortar dealer worth a crap within 500 miles of me (NorCal).