Marketing gone too far with "Super Steels"

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I cant deny that there are those who can tell a difference.

They may be able to with 1-The knife, 2-An optimal steel-specific heat treat, 3-Edge bevel base width, 4-Edge bevel angle, and 5-Edge bevel grit finish, all being exactly identical to maximum comparative effect: FIVE identical items... Methodology then has to be pretty tight, in the cut material, cut angle, cut motion and cut pressure...

Comparing different knives: A comparison of knives, with steel out of the picture...

Gaston
 
I've said it before, but steel type is way down on my list of reasons to buy a knife. I just don't use my knives hard enough to worry about it.

The overall design, blade shape,handle construction, and lock type interest me more. If it is made with any decent steel type, I'm fine with it. If it is made with a "super steel", I'm good with that too.
 
Or they have used the classic cutlery steels for a half century or more and don't see the need to change for the sake of change. The repurposed designer steels are good for people who are not satisfied with those and want something different. Or for some few, to make up for their deficiency in sharpening skills. It's all good and no one is forced to buy any alloy they don't want.

Yeah, I agree. If you don't need or want high vanadium steel, carbon steel is (usually) more affordable, tried and true, reliable. Options are good. Variety is good. If you don't like a certain steel, you don't have to buy it.
 
Other things about knives being similar (ergo s, wt, f and f, durability ) , I prefer knives with rather tough steel that has good edge retention. Sharpening those kinds of blades doesn t bother me.
 
I'm pretty sure the DC comic-book people won't be real happy about them using the Superman logo on their page... other than that, I don't see the big deal.

I'm pretty sure the Superman logo is kinda "public domain", that is to say DC has authorized it's use by the general public.
 
I have enough knives in 440HC, when I make a new knife purchase it has to be better than that. I love my zdp! I can definitely tell a difference. I like VG10 and S30V as well.

I have no problem sharpening them, it doesn't really take anything fancy schmancy, I have a smiths tristone that has diamond stones and an Arkansas stone, plus a few ceramic stones, and a lansky system.

I think my most disappointing steel is H1, which I got for my lunch knives, that way they would not corrode if put up wet, or cutting acidic fruits. I have one in my locker for emergencies but they don't see to hold and edge, or even get as sharp as the ones mentioned above. I can't slice my mangos and other eats with lazar like ability. I found I would just as soon use a better steel and rinse the knife afterwards.

I also use knives when I'm doing work outside, gardening and stuff. I admit I will use my tenacious or kershaw chive then, just because that's what I've always grabbed. But if I have a better blade on me I will use that one and enjoy the better slicing when I'm slicing suckers off the tomatoes, opening bags of stuff, or whatever.

I'm not planning on purchasing every new super steel that comes to market, but I appreciate there is more than the old standbys out there. I admit I kind of scoff at 440, I've had some with bad heat treats I guess. Yes it can be done right, but it can also be done wrong. I've never had wrong VG10 or S30V
 
Steel is one dimesion in knives.
It is a dimension worth exploring.
A knife consits of many dimensions; you'll have to find the optimum for yourself.
Isn't it cool to life in a period, where steel is being developed for knives?
red mag
 
Steel is one dimesion in knives.
It is a dimension worth exploring.
A knife consits of many dimensions; you'll have to find the optimum for yourself.
Isn't it cool to life in a period, where steel is being developed for knives?
red mag
Actually, several alloys are still being developed for many different industrial applications and being repurposed for knives. Cutlery is a nearly insignificant portion of steel usage. It is a good thing that people who have an interest in exploring different steels in cutlery have that option, yes. It provides yet another group of enthusiasts as repeat customers who buy cutlery, not because they need another knife, but because they like to explore the variety of materials offered. Some cutleries depend on this sub-market to keep their doors open with repeated sales. And naturally they target their marketing hype toward this buyer segment. Some do it with nostalgia tang stamps and/or handle materials or blade/frame patterns to target another niche market.
 
Spyderco are releasing a version of the Delica and Endura using a Japanese steel called HAP 40. I'd never heard of it. I looked it up, saw it has an unusual composition, including 6.5% Tungsten and 8% Cobalt. That's all the 'hype' it took to make me want to pick one up. I know, it's kind of ridiculous... but it's not very pricey, and I'd like to get another Endura.

I haven't heard any claims from Spyderco or retailers about HAP 40, and it might be a complete disaster as a blade steel, but I doubt it. You're right -- I have no need for this knife, or most of the knives I own. I also might not be able to discern any real difference between HAP 40 and M4. Oh well... a fancy new blade steel's no worse a reason for buying than brightly colored G-10 or carbon fiber limited editions.

I've also seen examples of people paying huge sums for knives made in W2 with the beautiful hamon. I don't know if it'll work any better than a far less expensive model without the hamon, but it sure looks nice. The same can be said for handles using titanium, carbon fiber, mammoth ivory, or colorful Burl, or crocodile hide, or anything more expensive than simple micarta and G-10 -- you don't need any of those expensive options. They're purely decorative, but they're very nice to have. Needs rarely have much to do with hobbies.
 
(snip)...Needs rarely have much to do with hobbies.

Bingo! The only "needs" involved are the needs of the cutleries and makers to cover costs and labor and make a profit for the owners which allows them to stay in business! To this end... it is exactly as a famous professional fisherman once told me about his newest fishing lure on which I was working on a patent application. "Fishing lures aren't designed to catch fish better than others. Fish have no money. They are designed to catch fishermen!"
 
I'm pretty sure the Superman logo is kinda "public domain", that is to say DC has authorized it's use by the general public.

You're kidding, right? I would be very, very surprised if that's true. If I owned the rights to that logo, and all the gazillions of t-shirts and comic books and movies and other licensed stuff that might use it for commercial reasons, the very freaking last thing I would do is say "aww screw it, y'all can use it for whatever, for free." :rolleyes:

Mark my words, that retailer is likely to get stomped if they used that particular piece of intellectual property without permission.
 
True. You could count the number of steels specifically formulated for knives, etc on your hands and maybe have some fingers left over. My understand is that once you weed out the small batch stuff like INFI, Cru Forge V, the Hitachi stuff, etc. perhaps the only modern "super steel" that was specifically invented with our type of applications in mind MAY be CTS-XHP and I am not even sure about that. Niolox was supposedly formulated for "cutting tools" the food industry, but that covers a lot of territory other than just kitchen knives.
Actually, several alloys are still being developed for many different industrial applications and being repurposed for knives. Cutlery is a nearly insignificant portion of steel usage. It is a good thing that people who have an interest in exploring different steels in cutlery have that option, yes. It provides yet another group of enthusiasts as repeat customers who buy cutlery, not because they need another knife, but because they like to explore the variety of materials offered. Some cutleries depend on this sub-market to keep their doors open with repeated sales. And naturally they target their marketing hype toward this buyer segment. Some do it with nostalgia tang stamps and/or handle materials or blade/frame patterns to target another niche market.
 
Bingo! The only "needs" involved are the needs of the cutleries and makers to cover costs and labor and make a profit for the owners which allows them to stay in business! To this end... it is exactly as a famous professional fisherman once told me about his newest fishing lure on which I was working on a patent application. "Fishing lures aren't designed to catch fish better than others. Fish have no money. They are designed to catch fishermen!"

:thumbup: So true. I haven't found the industry advertising to be too aggressive or offensive, mainly because it doesn't have to be. Retailers are responsible for most of the industry advertising, and they're usually not real imaginative when it comes to promoting their wares. Clownish knife-makers like Lynn Thompsom and Cold Steel, on the other hand, do plenty of over-the-top propaganda -- but they don't typically use 'super-steels'.

If I did see Cold Steel-type ads from Crucible, Bohler or Hitachi, I'd probably have a knee-jerk reaction against their products. In this case, the steel companies can't be bothered, and Spyderco are admirably restrained. After a quick introduction to the steel in question, they don't say much more about it. You're not likely to see Sal or Eric Glesser making embarrassingly juvenile YouTube videos about ZDP-189 or HAP 40, stabbing dead pigs and car doors and whatnot. Their superficially strange and -- to some -- ugly designs tends to attract customers who want quality and performance over looks.

I think many appreciate the fact that Spyderco doesn't treat its customers like mall-ninja douche-bags, but as intelligent people who like sharp, pointy things. Long before I became interested in knives, I loved physics and chemistry. When I became acquainted with the different blade steels, I loved to speculate about what certain elements might improve or compromise a steel's performance, what improvements differing ratios of carbon, chromium, vanadium, molybdenum, tungsten, niobium, nitrogen, etc. might yield.

This will twist the meaning of the nice little quote above, but oh well: all Spyderco had to do was show up, on this particular fishing trip. They didn't bother baiting the hook or casting. They simply told us fishies there were some super-worms available, and most of us just leaped into their boat. But I have fun with it all. I enjoy reading and watching Jim Ankerson's reviews, but I'm also becoming more interested in better sharpening methods to increase efficiency, durability and create a sharper cutting edge, and learning more about heat treatments and optimal hardness. I don't expect others to be as fascinated by any of this as I am, and I realize long-time members like yourself might find this pointless. I will say, however, that I actually like 'old-timey' methods and materials, and traditional Bowies, Fighters, and Camp Knives. Some of the makers on BF are creating some amazing, beautiful, handmade knives for very reasonable prices, and I prefer seeing those knives made with 1095, W2, O1, and Damascus, instead of CPM 154. It's just a preference, since S110V seems completely out-of-place on a coffin-handled Bowie.
 
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True. You could count the number of steels specifically formulated for knives, etc on your hands and maybe have some fingers left over. My understand is that once you weed out the small batch stuff like INFI, Cru Forge V, the Hitachi stuff, etc. perhaps the only modern "super steel" that was specifically invented with our type of applications in mind MAY be CTS-XHP and I am not even sure about that. Niolox was supposedly formulated for "cutting tools" the food industry, but that covers a lot of territory other than just kitchen knives.

I'm fairly sure that CPM S30V and CPM S35VN were developed for small knives specifically, with Crucible using input from various custom and production makers. I think that if you check the Bohler site, you'll find Elmax and M390 were their two PM steels created specifically for cutlery; N690 may have been a non-PM for cutlery. Sandvik too.
 
Actually, I think in this case it is US the consumers creating most if not all of the hype. Makers are just trying to cater to our requests. Every knife request thread on the forums, someone is saying 'too bad it isn't M4', or I hope they release a M390 version' or my favorite 'awe it ONLY comes in crappy S30v so Im not gonna buy it'. How do you expect the makers to respond?
 
I have heard that S35VN may have been developed based on the experience of cutlery makers, but I recall hearing that S30V may have been developed for the automotive industry like a lot of the other products that Crucible has developed in recent years. As for Bohler and Sanvik, their strip stains steels were, of course, developed for "cutlery" in the form of disposable razor blades and such.
I'm fairly sure that CPM S30V and CPM S35VN were developed for small knives specifically, with Crucible using input from various custom and production makers. I think that if you check the Bohler site, you'll find Elmax and M390 were their two PM steels created specifically for cutlery; N690 may have been a non-PM for cutlery. Sandvik too.
 
Actually, I think in this case it is US the consumers creating most if not all of the hype. Makers are just trying to cater to our requests. Every knife request thread on the forums, someone is saying 'too bad it isn't M4', or I hope they release a M390 version' or my favorite 'awe it ONLY comes in crappy S30v so Im not gonna buy it'. How do you expect the makers to respond?

Just to expand, here are some examples:

Cold Steel may have a rep as a hype machine but they were very content with AUS-8... BUT requests kept coming in DAILY it seemed like for a steel upgrade on the forums. So... they did.

M4 Paramilitaries are finally on their way after YEARS of begging on the forums.

Knifeworks and other dealers see how their exclusives in supersteels sell out and sell for crazy amounts on the secondary market. They can also see how supersteel versions of a model sell like hotcakes. I don't see it as getting force-fed something that we don't want but actually them catering to what we do want.
 
"Super Steel": A blade that is (a) easy to maintain in the field. (b) Takes and holds an edge well.

To me, a "Super Steel" is the 1045, 1055, 1095, 425HC (Buck knives) 440a, 4114 Krups (Cold Steel) and "Carbone" (Opinel). They take and hold a keen edge, cut anything I need to cut, and are easy to maintain. What more do I need?
 
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