Me vs. bouncer

To answer your question "what else could I have done"

1. You should have called 911 and said "I'm standing outside BarX and this guy just stole my knife. Please send help right now." By making a criminal complaint, you get the ball rolling on impressing on all involved that there will be consequences to their actions. The cops included. The lawyer threat is pretty empty - I am one, and unless that knife is worth a few thousand dollars, it's just not gonna pay to start suing people.

2. When the manager said you could have it back when you left, you should have said - "I'm leaving right now and want my knife back right now."

3. Tell the manager you are filing a complaint with the state liquor board or whoever governs that in your jurisdiction. Around here, they care more about this than the cops.


If you have the guts, there's one thing you can still do to help freedom loving people everywhere. Go to the police department and file a complaint against the officers who were there for misconduct. If they did as you claim, their behavior is reprehensible and your civic duty is to file a formal complaint. Your one complaint WILL make them think twice before behaving similarly, at the very least.

-Scott
 
Since laws and customs vary based on locale, it would help to know where this happened.

It sounds like theft just like any other to me, like a purse snatching. It might even be assault, depending on the local laws.

In reality, however, you (MaMMa) are screwed. Even though you are apparently in the right, there is absolutely no doubt the bouncer, club owner, and the cops on the scene are going to lie their a**es off if you push the issue. If you're willing to do the right thing and press charges even though it could go horribly badly for you, I commend you and I'm impressed by your determination.

Were I in the same situation, I would probably be thankful I still had my property, didn't get arrested by bad cops, and didn't get beaten as well. That may not seem very honorable, but from the given scenario, I don't see how a lone good guy could possible prevail in the legal system without a few honest witnesses and some other evidence like video or audio. In the end, it will be your word against the contrived group story of those five scumbags.

But then, I also wouldn't be going to a club at night, but that's just me. Nothing good can come from it, and many bad things can and do happen to good people.
 
I agree with what someone here said. Id have stood right next to the cops and bouncer, opened my phone, and called the police. I would have said "I would like to report a theft, the criminal is still here on scene and the police here are unwilling to help. I need someone to come here and resolve the situation before it escalates."
 
Yeah, I might have called the police at that time too, since it would have been a lot tougher to cover up. After the fact, though, it seems like a losing proposition.
 
Merek said:
MORIMOTOM hit it for me.

I had a similar situation involving a bounce-orilla, the manager/owner and law enforcement years ago. (Amazingly I was wearing a Buck 110, but that was NOT a problem back then. Let's just say I may have been wearing a polyester shirt...) After discussing my concerns in "a talk with the owner in a calm, respectfull way", I left but needed to get the rest of my party to leave also. I was rudely denied re-entry to do so. Long story involving me being 'in the right',ME calling the cops, the cop returning to the club with me to get their side of the story.
We walk up to the door.
Cop asks 'Evening, Bob. What's the problem?'
Owner Bob replies 'That guy won't take 'no' for an answer.'
Cop shoves me into the wall, searches, cuffs and calls the hootchvagen.
No charges were filed. Knife was returned with all my pocket stuff when I returned to civil society the next morning.
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sorry to hear of your ordeal. i have encountered several bouncers or securtity types who dont realize they can only enforce company policies, ie rules of the business, though they may be given some lattitude when making a citizen's arrest for a crime they witness. but to use any amount of force when no force was used against them is awful poor judgment and subjects them to criminal and civil liability.

this does not include taking ones arm to escort them out of a club or other establishment. once you pull away or resist their efforts, it becomes an act of aggression, and they may appropriately respond. however i think many overstep their bounds far too early.
 
You should have charged him with theft, pressed charges and then charged the bouncer and the manager for extortion. (Probably more trouble than it's worth.) But, realistically I'd just tell everyone I know not to go to the club. Did you pay for the drink with a credit card? You could always stop the charges. ;-)
 
Gadgetman, that's not how it works in most juristdictions in the U.S. You can't charge or not charge someone with specific crimes. Generally, only a district attorney can do that. What a person can do is call the police to report such a crime. If the police don't act on the complaint, then the person can file what amounts to a private criminal complaint. With a private criminal complaint, essentially you are acting as the police would - alleging certain bad acts and asking the prosecutor to act on them. The prosecutor however would decide who to charge with what crimes, if any.

Once again MaMMa, the one thing left for you to do that would really make a difference is file a formal complaint against the police.

-Scott
 
From another forum, I posted the same story.

"Had a friend have a "similar" issue at a club once. He gives me a ring because he's in town, don't get to see him much and says he wants to go for a beer, but wanted lots of noise and people... well we to to a local club downtown, stand in line for a few and then it's our turn at the "nepoleonic bouncers" - see where I'm headed? I'm 6'1" `200 lbs, my friend is 6'2" ~225 but in much better shape.
Here's the different part - he has a CC permit in WA state because his job as a courier moving documents, cash, and other valuables across the state. He's had a small frame .45 strapped to his body for about as long as I've known him, and in this case, he didn't even think about it since he rarely has a night off.
So, the bouncers, "maybe" 5'8', all round and over 200 lbs.. are being jerks to everyone, then two tall guys come up and they are complete dicks to the two of us. One of them looks me in the eye and says "Don't cause any problems or I'll have to teach you a lesson...." - I look back at him and give him my best "WTF-over" look - he then points and says "okay mister attitude, let's pat you and your friend down shall we...."
Okay, whatever... short asshole on a power trip..
He gets pissed when he finds nothing on me, then pats my friend and feels the pistol in it's holster. "Whoa... " he says, "you are going to have to give me that or else". My friend looks at his pistol and says.. "Shit... I have a Concealed Carry for my job, forgot I had it on me... I'll leave and go lock it up... I'm sorry about that...". Apparently this was a threat for BOTH of the bouncers... "No, I said you are going to have to give it to me, you are not going any where... you are in my line, in my club, I own it now... hand it over or we'll make sure you wish you never got out of bed today".
So the shorter and rounder of the two reach for the pistol while the bald fatty with an attitude on a power trip attempts to hold my friend. Big mistake. In about 2 seconds, The lessor of two bouncers is slumped to the floor with a bloody face and badly baldy 2x4 has cocked and loaded .45 pointed at his face.
Within minutes the cops show up, with the .45 in the guys face still... soon as the cops say something, my friend pull the weapon down, puts on the safety and hands it to the nearest cop. At least the cops were cool - asked for everyone's ID, saw the CC, asked what happened, and everyone in line said "the bouncers were being dickheads" -
The best bit was that the cops ran everyone's ID through their system in the patrol cal, and badly powertip apparently had an outstanding bench warrant for failure to appear... 5 times. They hauled his ass out in handcuffs.

I hate it when bouncers are on power trips... yes, they have to deal with assholes, and drunken morons, but treating soon-to-be paying customers like they are criminals from the get go? Yah, my friend shouldn't have had his CC firearm on him, and he did offer to leave and lock it up... he did feel bad... until they tried to restrain him and take it from him...bad mistake.

Anyway...MaMMa I know how you feel, ruins the evening when all we wanted was a beer and kick back for a few."

Man that made my day so much better. :D
 
Very irresponsible to be carrying weapons and trying to get into clubs/bars/taverns. Every CCW I've seen stipulates against such a practice. "I forgot" usually doesn't work to well, someone got lucky.
 
I think it would be irresponsible of anyone to think they don't need to protect themselves simply because they are at a bar or tavern. In fact it seems a place that might as well have a "OUR CUSTOMERS ARE UNARMED!" sign is exactly the place I would want to have a gun with me.

-Scott
 
granuale said:
I think it would be irresponsible of anyone to think they don't need to protect themselves simply because they are at a bar or tavern. In fact it seems a place that might as well have a "OUR CUSTOMERS ARE UNARMED!" sign is exactly the place I would want to have a gun with me.

-Scott
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Even if it is legal, carrying a weapon when you intend on getting s__tfaced is a bad idea. That's a definite strike against you if you have to use the weapon, and your inebriated state may cloud your judgement. There is a Delaware court ruling that actually justify's their CCDW without a permit is illegal law, that says it is necesary to keep people from committing criminal acts in their 'less than sober' moments. In my home state, Connecticut, it is a B misdomeanor to carry a loaded firearm while intoxicated, and no doubt they'll loose their permit as well and possibly face other charges.

Bad advice Scott.
 
WadeF said:
Sounds like the cops were working for the club and not for you. I would report them to the DA or whoever is in charge of the cops.
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+1. In some jurisdictions there actions could be construed as accessory to felony theft. I would go to the local DA/ Sheriff's office or City Marshal. If no luck there, go the the PD and ask to speak to someone in Internal Affairs.

That said, it I was probably a really bad idea to forget that you had it. Carrying anything into a bar if you are planning on getting drunk is a bad plan. If you aren't planning on getting drunk, carry cheap and discrete.
 
Hey mp, YOU said they were going to get shitfaced. They just said they wanted to have a beer. A 220 pounder can have 5 beers in 2 hours and not be a dui. I don't know about you but I've been drunk many times, and I don't think I would have trouble determining someone wanted to kill me.

Who cares if you lose your permit if you're alive! There's a saying "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."

Your advice might keep him on the right side of the law, but mine will keep him alive. I'll let him decide whose is better.

-Scott

mp510 said:
Even if it is legal, carrying a weapon when you intend on getting s__tfaced is a bad idea. That's a definite strike against you if you have to use the weapon, and your inebriated state may cloud your judgement. There is a Delaware court ruling that actually justify's their CCDW without a permit is illegal law, that says it is necesary to keep people from committing criminal acts in their 'less than sober' moments. In my home state, Connecticut, it is a B misdomeanor to carry a handgun while intoxicated, and no doubt they'll loose their permit as well and possibly face other charges.

Bad advice Scott.
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mp510 said:
Even if it is legal, carrying a weapon when you intend on getting s__tfaced is a bad idea.
Click to expand...


The bad idea is getting drunk in the first place, not that you're carrying a weapon. An adult human should always be responsible for their own actions, and getting intoxicated prevents you from effectively doing so. It also makes you far more vulnerable to predators.
 
How does a bouncer remove a pocket knife from you? A step back and swat his hand with yours is basic self defense, and automatic. At that point walking away is easy. If he follows on public property he is committing assault.

The only time I was denied entry to a club was when the doorman politely said no weapons, so I left. No problem. He never got within 5 feet of me.
 
WadeF said:
Sounds like the cops were working for the club and not for you.
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This is pretty common down at the Jersey shore - uniformed police officers checking IDs at the entrance and providing security for clubs and bars. I'm not real thrilled with the idea of my tax dollars going to provide security for private businesses.
 
Granuale, gave you the correct respond on how you should have handled it. You should had left and when they refused to give it back just called 911 and request for a Police Officer Supervisor to respond. Also remember that you need to know who the witnesses are incase you need them for further information. As for the bouncer- In most states they fall under "Security Officers" and have no right to place a hand on you. That is assault and you could bring charges against him. His job would have been to inform the Police Officers there that you have a weapon-knife in your possession and let them handle it. At the end of the day you will win nothing so just stay away from that piece of crap place. I am pretty sure that there are other places that you could go for a drink. If you want some piece of mind that you took some action report the incident to the DA and let them notify the club owner.

Note* Also remember that you were in possession of a weapon while attempting to enter a public facility that sells alcohol / bar. Find out what your state statues are because it might be better for you just to drop the subject and take it as a lesson learned.
 
Rich_S said:
This is pretty common down at the Jersey shore - uniformed police officers checking IDs at the entrance and providing security for clubs and bars. I'm not real thrilled with the idea of my tax dollars going to provide security for private businesses.
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Most of that is off duty work and paid by the establishment / business. That is extra duty for them and plenty of police officers work those available opportunities to make an extra buck. That is why they get too friendly with the staff because if they become a "prick" with the staff or management they will not be requested to return. Money lost in their pockets.
 
Peppe....I agree with all you said EXCEPT that security Officer can't touch you or they will be arressted. I am a former NYC LEO and I know work for a real estate company that operates Malls/ Office buildings in about 27 states. We have off duty LEOs on our payroll and security officers, and there is not one state that we operate in that does not allow force to be used by our security officers to remove tresspassers of other suspects or to detain some one who has committed a crime...there maybe civil action if you are wrong, but not criminal....
 
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