meat eaters

[Raisedby wolves]

I am just seriously doubting you, I, or anyone else here is going to get stuck in a situation where ALL we have is lean, SUPER LEAN meat and NOTHING else, even in a survival sitch.

Can "rabbit starvation" happen? I guess, but as I said, It isn't likely. Besides, If it is all you had, what would you do? Not eat?

Carl-

 

[Codger_64]

If rabbit or squirrel is all you have, then eat it. But it makes sense to me not to restrict yourself purposely to nothing but lean meat. In most places where I go that there are rabbits, there are also possums and raccoons. Both normally have high fat content. Both can be baited with rabbit carcases too. Even whitetail deer, very lean meated animals, have fat in their bone marrow if they aren't starving. And if you are getting your meat by trapping (or snaring), why not look for some wild plant foods to supplement that meat while your traps are hunting for you?

 

[paleojoe]

Stews make for some of the best survival foods...

Lean animals like rabbit, or squirrel can be put in, marrow, bone and all. No loss there. The broths are super charged. Veggies and plants go in as well.

Of course, a healthy diet is a diverse one. Native Californians were pretty much non-exclusive. They had large loops for foraging, hunting, fishing and gathering. Nuts, berries, fish, roots veggies (starches have the poysaccharides, complex sugars:thumbup, bulbs, flowers, they dried meats, fruits, made grain and flour out of pretty much anything.

Grain should not be overlooked. Grains and flours can be made out of so much: inner barks, grass seed, husks, nuts, etc.


I know a few people that are athletic and reduced the amount of carb intake and replaced with protein after all this Atkins Diet boom... One got diverticulitis, essentially swelling of the lower colon with little ulcers. He now has to supplement his diet with high amounts veggies and leafy greens. He can't eat whole grains anymore either... Always beware of extremes...

 

[SouthernCross]

The Australian army certainly places value on edible plants in survival situations in hot environments :thumbup:

That's why they sent Maj. Les Hibbens (AKA Bushtucker Man) to the Nth of Australia to liase with the local Aborigines to collect and map the location of a range of bushtucker plants. The specimens were sent directly to Sydney University to specifically test for the presence of the water soluble vitamins (C & some of the B group).

If your going to be relying on meat only in hot climates, you better eat it raw to increase the vitamin C intake, 'cause the volume of water you will need to drink to stay hydrated will also deplete your bodies stores of the water soluble vitamins.




Kind regards
Mick

 

[paleojoe]

good point Mick, the amount of water required to digest different foods... Plants can supply amounts of moisture to the body with consumption.

 

[LUW]

Though my line of work is not nutrition or nutrology, most of that info is hogwash. No, I'm not going to prove you why it's hogwash; it took me 6 years in med school plus 3 years in a residency program plus I don't know how many hundreds of hours reading medical journals to be able to say with conviction that most of that info is hogwash. It would take a LOT of time to hunt down over the web all the info and data I would need to make a case on what I'm saying. But by no means you should take my word for it, so if you want proof, talk to a doctor or nutritionist you trust and I'm positive they can give you a lot of info - it's way easier to explain all this talking instead of writing. Typing all that is needed here would be a huge chore and a big drag for everyone - specially me .

Simply because you can't prove it.

Here are just some research papers I'll provide:

A Literature Review of the Value-Added Nutrients found in Grass-fed Beef Products
(64 scientific research papers) many from the following professional publications:
Journal of Animal Science
Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry
Journal of Nutrition
Journal of Food Compisition Analysis
Journal of Lipid Research
American Heart Journal
Journal of Meat Science
Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee
Canadian Journal of Animal Science
Livestock Production Science
International Journal of Vitamin and Nutrition Research
Nutritional Health
Institute of Medicine, Food and Nutrition Board
Institute of Medicine
Cancer Research
Canadian Journal of Cardiology
Journal of American Dietary Association
Journal of American College of Nutrition
Ophthalmology
Department of Animal Sciences, Colorado State University
Journal of Food Chemistry
National Institute of Health Clinical Nutrition Center
Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism
Journal of Clinical Epidemiology
Diabetes Care
Journal of Human Nutr Dietet
Food Reviews International
Journal of Food Science
http://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grassfedbeef/research/health/index.html

And maybe just a little common sense.
1,000's of grazing animals forced together in a feed lot and fed corn vs grazing animals allowed to actually graze on pasture.
Which is a healthier system?
Remember...these are "grazing" animals, and have been for 1,000's of years.

Healthy animals produce healthy meat.
I stand by common sense

And all those articles produced so much practical knowledge after human trials (double blind, of course) that the FDA and every single health regulation agency in the civilized world issued a warning that farmed animals present a genuine health risk if they're consumed on a daily basis?


Again, to consume wild animals generally (don't forget the big risk of zoonosis) is healthier, but eating farmed animals will not kill you. Or will indirectly, if you have a sedentary life style and fat-rich diet.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

I am just seriously doubting you, I, or anyone else here is going to get stuck in a situation where ALL we have is lean, SUPER LEAN meat and NOTHING else, even in a survival sitch.

Can "rabbit starvation" happen? I guess, but as I said, It isn't likely. Besides, If it is all you had, what would you do? Not eat?

Carl-

I think maybe you aren't fully understanding what I'm saying. Evidently I'm not saying it right, because there's a massive miscommunication going on (which happens, it's okay, sometimes I don't say things like I think I do!). IT'S ABOUT AN IMBALANCE. Not the animal. If you go two months with NOTHING but one kind of food, there's going to be a problem. Your body isn't designed to run off of one thing all the time. It requires different kinds of nutrients that are found in different sources. Too much of one mineral or protein and you'll cause yourself a big problem--it's like overdosing on medication. Are there ways to mitigate possible dangers? Yes. But you get into another long, drawn out debate about muscle damage, fat amounts, ketosis, etc...

I'm not saying "don't eat." Eat whatever you want.

I'm saying be careful. There is such thing as too much of a good thing. Just because you have a plethora of meat (even though I can bet you a solid gold brick that there'll be a plant somewhere closer and within easier reach) doesn't mean you should gorge yourself on it.

Too much lean meat and you run a risk of diarrhea and vomiting from protein poisoning. Too much fatty meat will absolutely destroy your cholesterol level. Even WITH a large amount of exercise. Too many plants and NO meat means no protein; and too much of certain plants can cause problems with your body's absorption of certain minerals and vitamins.

It's about moderation, maintenance and not putting your body through more Hell than it's already going through.

Not to mention that you'll die of thirst long before you'll die of starvation. Your body is designed by evolution to deal with starvation.

Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a question. You've got plenty of meat for two months, right? So what happens if your situation drags out to three months, four months, longer?

 

[Infi-del]

depends on your body weight. It's kinda like the atkins diet. After a few days your body will go into ketosis. This is where it must draw energy from your stored fat. So if you got a 30 pound gut on you, you can last farly long just eating meat. I think you need a minimum of 20 carbs a day in order for your brain to function. But other than that you can survive a while on your fat stores. Now, if you're a little lean guy, then your countdown is a lot shorter. There is a thing called protein starvation because there is almost nothing of value on lean meat but protein and you can get very sick on a diet of only lean meat. But hearts, brains, and fat from animals can give you some fuel you need.

 

[LUW]

Generally speaking, you can go on for at least three to four weeks with no food at all (as long as you have enough water). You will survive that month or so, but after three weeks (if you were pretty lean to begin with) you will have suffered some damage from the privation of certain nutrients. Even brain damage, from the lack of certain lipids and amino acids/protein.

With some calories a day, that period of course will be extended, but as said before, even if you have enough of one thing (proteins, for instance), but you only have proteins, there will be damage to your body in the long run. In that case, after two months or maybe more, you should eat organs too of what you hunt/trap/kill. The period will depend a lot on your physical condition beforehand.

 

[beef]

Your brain runs on sugars, if you eat only meat, you're not going to be feeling too crash hot. Sure, gluconeogenesis will eventually kick in and turn other things into fuel for you, but you'll feel awful before this happens.

At a nutrition conference, I met a bloke who was the head of Fitness Queensland. He was telling me about a nutrient required by the eyes that can only be got from carbohydrates.

Sure, in the short term it's all about overall caloric intake. But you'll feel really, really bad. And your organs will have a hard time coping with such a high protein diet.

Also, I don't really think it's fair to compare our own digestive system to an Inuit's. They've lived with certain digestive adaptations for a while now. Who knows if we could also adapt.

 

[Raisedby wolves]

And I agree with you. To stay healthy, you need a balance of lean meat (protein) fat and certain vitamins and minerals.

My only point was, that I sincerely doubt that a survival situation would be long enough to succumb to the "bad" things that would happen from eating only animal meat. I never claimed that it was smart to eat only rabbit or only any other animal.

It might be more prudent to eat only meat to avoid making a mistake on plant identification. An only meat diet may start to seriously affect your health in a few months, a mistake with plant ID is going to cost you a lot quicker.

If you are someone who 100% knows edible and medicinal plants, and you are trying to survive in an area that you know well, and you can find the plants to eat in addition to animals, by all means it is the intelligent thing to eat a balanced diet.

If you are not 100% sure about plant ID, are stranded in a foreign location and have access to animals, it might be the better choice to stick with meat. And if you can vary the diet (turkey, rabbit, groundhog, etc) it may help to get a variety of protein, fat and vitamins in your diet without risk of poisoning.

Peace,

Carl-

 

[DennisStrickland]

havind read the true account of early cattle drives starting in texas [1860]. dried meat & salt pork were only meats available unless buffalo' snakes & jack rabbits were taken. diahhrea was a problem & charles good night used indian remedies to address problem. one cure was inner bark of cottonwood tree.if one is really cognicent of trees & plants nearly all maladies can be addressed. another good vege source is tender roots of schrubs & trees.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

And I agree with you. To stay healthy, you need a balance of lean meat (protein) fat and certain vitamins and minerals.

My only point was, that I sincerely doubt that a survival situation would be long enough to succumb to the "bad" things that would happen from eating only animal meat. I never claimed that it was smart to eat only rabbit or only any other animal.

It might be more prudent to eat only meat to avoid making a mistake on plant identification. An only meat diet may start to seriously affect your health in a few months, a mistake with plant ID is going to cost you a lot quicker.

If you are someone who 100% knows edible and medicinal plants, and you are trying to survive in an area that you know well, and you can find the plants to eat in addition to animals, by all means it is the intelligent thing to eat a balanced diet.

If you are not 100% sure about plant ID, are stranded in a foreign location and have access to animals, it might be the better choice to stick with meat. And if you can vary the diet (turkey, rabbit, groundhog, etc) it may help to get a variety of protein, fat and vitamins in your diet without risk of poisoning.

Peace,

Carl-

Super. :thumbup: I say what I'm thinking a lot, and it doesn't usually come out the way it sounds in my head-- it comes off as asshole know-it-all survival guru.

I was thinking in terms of some kind of TSHTF thing. Not just an oh-crap, I'm-lost-in-the-woods kind of thing or an oh-poop-the-power-has-been-out-for-two-weeks kind of thing. I've seen situations where people here have been without power for a month or better because of ice storms. So it's entirely possible that a situation can drag out into something really ugly, really quickly.
Be careful about doubting that it can happen. It does. And usually when you least expect it.

 

[Raisedby wolves]

All out SHTF, ya better have someone in the group that knows plants very well, or all will suffer eventually.

You are right on the money, preperation is key and it does not help to be 100% prepared for one scenario and have something else taker you by surprise and say, "I should have....."

Carl-

 

[bradefolums]

What about eating the stomach contents of vegetarian animals you kill to eat? Would that be a good source of vitamins and minerals you don't get from eating only meat?

Its a good source of carbohydrates.

I recently saw a Ray Mears show on youtube, The Real Heroes of Telemark and according to him this is how great hunting cultures all over the globe obtain carbohydrates in winter.

What they'd do is take the stomach/intestines of reindeer, filled with green stuff, and leave it out to freeze. Then slice thin and boil into a stew. This would neutralize the smell and render the reindeer moss (or whatever green your critter eats) blander than spinach.


Hmm, deer also eat meat?
http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2009/10/meat-eating-deer?photo=3
http://www.twincitiesnaturalist.com/2009/10/secret-insides-of-deer-stomach.html

 

[bradefolums]

I won't have hard data to back me up on this, but I think they eat other parts that not just steak meat because they want to and not because they need it, or when they don't have enough steak meat. What is fact is there's basically nothing in organs (heart, liver, kidneys, etc) that is not present in "regular steak meat".

muscles don't have vitamin c like liver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Animal_sources

Exactly. Certain amino acids that are indispensable for human life, are ONLY present in meat. So no, a 100% vegetable diet is not healthy nor possible. You can get enough calories from vegetables (though you will need a lot of volume), but you will not get the amino acids.

Sorry but you're misinformed. Vegetarians (there is a billion) just need to mix (eg beans and rice).

If you killed the animal, eat the meat. More efficient in terms of nutrition, tastes better and way less gross then eating something from the stomach of a dead animal .

no starch in meat, starch in stomach contents

 

[bradefolums]

What is the longest someone has survived at sea?

That would give a pretty good indication.

Carl-

Saw a show last month on history channel, 3/5 mexican shark fishermen survived drifting for 9 months on fish/seagulls/rainwater.

The survivors ate everything raw, the other two
(captain and first mate, city boys, got them stranded by running out of gas searching for lost $1000 worth of rope ) ,
couldn't force themselves to swallow, so they died.
First mate lasted a week, the captain lasted 3 or 6.
Its mind boggling, starving for 6 weeks and still gagging on raw fish.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=563861db-4e90-4ae5-a7bc-59eb5f1a496a&k=20375

 

[bradefolums]

Well said, but let's re-think so called "protein poisoning." Rabbit starvation is not due too much protein, but too little fat. Remember, a healthy diet includes essential amino acids, essential fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals. Rabbit as a sole source of food may be nutritionally limited, so be sure to eat its brain, liver, and kidneys.
Ironically, many of the ideas surrounding "protein poisoning" come from studies force feeding rabbits meat. Rabbits don't normally eat much meat. Except the Monty Python ones.

As far as I can tell, one can live almost indefinitely on fatty meat. I have to assume that one would deplete stores of vitamin C eventually, but I'm not aware of that experiment having been conducted.

don't forget the marrow crack them bones

 

[bradefolums]

On another Ray Mears program he was with the Inuit. They shot a narwhal and pulled it onto the ice. The father cut a square of blubber and he and his son ate it right there and then raw. Ray said that the small piece, like an inch square, had more vitamin C in it than several oranges.

I saw that and its the skin that has the vitamins, the blubber is just fat (blubber).

 

[LUW]

muscles don't have vitamin c like liver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Animal_sources

Yes, liver has more, but an emergency situation, you don't need the liver. Of course, after a couple of months (at least) only the vitamin C found in meat will not be enough. I thought we were talking about a short term situation. If it gets long term (at least 6 months), then we're back at discussing what vegetables can be safely eaten in the bush.

Sorry but you're misinformed. Vegetarians (there is a billion) just need to mix (eg beans and rice).

Sorry, you're misinformed. Of all the amino acids that we need, arginine, cysteine, glycine, glutamine, histidine, proline, serine and tyrosine are essential to intake every day, ie, we need to eat these or die, because our body does not synthesize them. And here's the problem: vegetables (and only certain vegetables) are poor in amino acids. When they do carry amino acids, it's just one or two types, so if you were going to thrive only on vegetables, you would have to eat the right vegetables and in the right amounts. We're in a survival situation, right? What should you concern yourself more about? Getting animal protein. And yes, if the so called survival situation stretches for longer then anticipated, start thinking on eating meat, organs and maybe even stomach content.

no starch in meat, starch in stomach contents

Starch is carbohydrate. As long as you don't have some serious metabolic deficiency (the kind that kills you at birth) your organism will convert protein and fat in all the carbos you need.