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30 day trial membership, a gold member or above to sell on the exchange, and a basic membership to trade. Also require an active email account and real name to be attached to all accounts/profiles.
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All For Sale threads must have a pic showing the knife being sold with written date listed, your username & Bladeforums or BFC to prevent photo harvesting from elsewhere - scammers hate this one trick! The rules for The Exchange can be found here. Please read and follow them. Stop using Paypal Friends & Family and follow our best practices to prevent getting ripped off or having a bad deal.
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Member verification ideas
- Thread starter sh00ter01
- Start date
Just a few thoughts on what's been said.
Not everyone has paypal or wants it. Making it a requirement to trade so you can make a collateral payment that will then be returned is in my opinion overly complicated and again forces people to join or have a service they don't want or need. Paypal can do some shady thing's themselves and many don't want it. Also, scams can work both ways. I take your paypal deposit, claim I never received your end of the trade. Now your out your knife and your money. How long before that becomes the new scam of the day?
I support the idea of some type of paid membership combined with a minimum waiting period before you can trade or sell. Post counts mean little or less to me. It's very easy to drive up a high post count in a short time. Plus it encourages new members to make a bunch of sulfurous posts when they should be reading more and posting less.
I agree that you should research a persons history before you do business with them but lets be honest. You see a great deal on the exchange for a knife you've been looking for or wanting a long time, how many are really going to take the time to look up and read the extended post history of that person and risk someone else jumping on it and missing the deal? I suggest not many. It sounds good but in reality I don't see much of it happening. Sellers maybe considering an offer but not eager buyers. I'd much rather rely on a feedback score that I knew was earned and harder to get.
I understand that for new members having to wait to participate in the exchange is frustrating but on the other hand it would show their sincerity if they do hang in there and wait it out. BFC isn't only about the exchange. Far too many already see and treat BFC like it's another ebay and not the community it really is first and foremost.
I think I like best the idea of a minimum six month waiting period coupled with some type of participation requirement and maybe a paying membership level at a minimum to trade and Gold or better to sell. If nothing else I'd know the person in the exchange or offering a trade is more likely a true knife enthusiast, been around at least a short while and been vetted to some small degree.
I'd also like to see some standard of communication required and enforced. No more after you pay or ship that's the end of all contact. Enough of that already. Making it standard to at least acknowledge receipt of payment, items shipped with tracking and that you received your item at a minimum would cut to a large degree many of the problems we see and also serve as an early indicator of trouble or thing's starting to go south.
None of this will of course completely eliminate scams, unsavory types or those that one day decide to take the wrong path but I think it would go a long way in cutting down on them and definitely make for less easy picking's for those with bad intentions. Add that with all the common sense measures already suggested like having new members or people with low feedback ship first and I think thing's will improve. Plus, then when I see feedback it will have more value as I know the person did more to earn it.
Just my 2 cents....
Not everyone has paypal or wants it. Making it a requirement to trade so you can make a collateral payment that will then be returned is in my opinion overly complicated and again forces people to join or have a service they don't want or need. Paypal can do some shady thing's themselves and many don't want it. Also, scams can work both ways. I take your paypal deposit, claim I never received your end of the trade. Now your out your knife and your money. How long before that becomes the new scam of the day?
I support the idea of some type of paid membership combined with a minimum waiting period before you can trade or sell. Post counts mean little or less to me. It's very easy to drive up a high post count in a short time. Plus it encourages new members to make a bunch of sulfurous posts when they should be reading more and posting less.
I agree that you should research a persons history before you do business with them but lets be honest. You see a great deal on the exchange for a knife you've been looking for or wanting a long time, how many are really going to take the time to look up and read the extended post history of that person and risk someone else jumping on it and missing the deal? I suggest not many. It sounds good but in reality I don't see much of it happening. Sellers maybe considering an offer but not eager buyers. I'd much rather rely on a feedback score that I knew was earned and harder to get.
I understand that for new members having to wait to participate in the exchange is frustrating but on the other hand it would show their sincerity if they do hang in there and wait it out. BFC isn't only about the exchange. Far too many already see and treat BFC like it's another ebay and not the community it really is first and foremost.
I think I like best the idea of a minimum six month waiting period coupled with some type of participation requirement and maybe a paying membership level at a minimum to trade and Gold or better to sell. If nothing else I'd know the person in the exchange or offering a trade is more likely a true knife enthusiast, been around at least a short while and been vetted to some small degree.
I'd also like to see some standard of communication required and enforced. No more after you pay or ship that's the end of all contact. Enough of that already. Making it standard to at least acknowledge receipt of payment, items shipped with tracking and that you received your item at a minimum would cut to a large degree many of the problems we see and also serve as an early indicator of trouble or thing's starting to go south.
None of this will of course completely eliminate scams, unsavory types or those that one day decide to take the wrong path but I think it would go a long way in cutting down on them and definitely make for less easy picking's for those with bad intentions. Add that with all the common sense measures already suggested like having new members or people with low feedback ship first and I think thing's will improve. Plus, then when I see feedback it will have more value as I know the person did more to earn it.
Just my 2 cents....
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- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 13,976
A few thoughts/questions....
On the paypal issue, I favor it for paying for your membership because it gives the site owner your name, whereas a MO doesn't. You can sign any name to that. You don't have to use paypal for the trades, and I don't favor the paypal escrow ideas, mainly for the reasons you mentioned.
Membership time requirements, maybe. But what's to stop a scammer from just creating a new one every month and letting it age? Yes, the mods around here are good at rooting that out, but can't be everywhere. No opposed to the idea at all, just don't think a 6 month requirement is necessary. I think the paid membership requirement will do far more.
Enforced communication standards, by who and how would they be enforced? Sure good communication is strongly suggested, but who's going to make us do that?
I agree fully. :thumbup:
There have indeed been far more than usual of late but that number is still far less than the blue members that have skinned folks here. It is impossible to get it pefect but we can make it as hard as we can for those that want to abuse this site and its members.
There have indeed been far more than usual of late but that number is still far less than the blue members that have skinned folks here. It is impossible to get it pefect but we can make it as hard as we can for those that want to abuse this site and its members.
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
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You're right, credit card or check might also be good options. Just something with some sort of ID verification.
IMHO, negative feedback should be reserved for when it really goes bad. Like the other party didn't ship at all. Poor comms should get neutral. My opinion. A separate category sounds like a good idea if if can be made easy to use and read.
IMHO, negative feedback should be reserved for when it really goes bad. Like the other party didn't ship at all. Poor comms should get neutral. My opinion. A separate category sounds like a good idea if if can be made easy to use and read.
As much as I HATE to suggest or incorporate ebay or Amazon practices shipping and communication are feedback categories. To some, that can be very important.
Maybe knowing that failing to exercise the most basic communication courtesies that most of us practice as a matter of course would cost you on that "all important feedback" might compel those inconsiderate folks who don't seem to care once they get your money to think twice about not doing the right thing?
Plus, it would let others know this seller /trader whatever has a history of bad communication. Can't hurt but then again I already see the complications of implementing.
You are right though, Negative feedback may be to harsh. I was just thinking out loud so to speak.
IMO feedback is pretty useless as it is now anyway, you get "tit for tat" negatives and alot of people don't even bother to leave feedback at all. I have many more deals than my feed back shows as do many other members here. It seems honesty is not rewarded the way it should be with feedback either. If I leave a negative feedback but state the knife was as described and it was all good but the person took 3 weeks to post the knife with no communication I would be quite right to post that as a negative. All that will happen though is the other guy will leave me a negative in retaliation, even if I payed 2 mins after we made the deal. That sort of practice makes people hold back on what they should be saying and so the feedback is perhaps less than accurate, at best.
I don't know what the answer to all this would be but I'm all for making it harder for the shady folks to operate here in any way we can.
I don't know what the answer to all this would be but I'm all for making it harder for the shady folks to operate here in any way we can.
fp_tourist
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 686
Lot of good ideas here, but I think most would be rather difficult to implement. As other have said, I think the easiest solution here is to require a paid subscription to participate in trades. I spend a lot of time in the trade forum, and would feel much more comfortable dealing with other paid members.
Haze,
I don't know the answer either but I'm with you 100% for making it harder for the "dirtbag's" and thieves that have been taking advantage and scamming the good folks here.
Few thing's bother me more then when I read another thread about someone getting scammed, again....
I think a lot of good suggestions have been made here though.. Perhaps some will be considered but as it stands now you can just do the best you can do.
Excellent observation about he feedback system though. I wish I had some ideas on how to fix that one, except maybe breaking it up into categories, but even then. Retaliatory feedbacks would still occur.
I don't know the answer either but I'm with you 100% for making it harder for the "dirtbag's" and thieves that have been taking advantage and scamming the good folks here.
Few thing's bother me more then when I read another thread about someone getting scammed, again....
I think a lot of good suggestions have been made here though.. Perhaps some will be considered but as it stands now you can just do the best you can do.
Excellent observation about he feedback system though. I wish I had some ideas on how to fix that one, except maybe breaking it up into categories, but even then. Retaliatory feedbacks would still occur.
fp_tourist
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 686
This is why I think the feedback system doesn't work. I've never seen a negative feedback that wasn't returned. There could be a lot of people out there who delivered poor transactions with nothing but positives because the people who were not satisfied with the deal didn't bother leaving a negative for fear of retaliation.
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
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The one downside to leaving neutral is that it doesn't affect the feedback %. I could have several neutrals and still show a 100% rating. You'd never know unless you actually looked at the feedback itself. I like to do just that, and if I see a neutral I read the comment. If I see several I find the back button and leave that trader alone. Haze make the good point that not everyone leaves feedback. He's right, mine should be well over 100 if everyone I've dealt with left me a rating. The issue of retaliatory feedback is there, too. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to eliminate that completely. One thing that can be done is to have bad feedback from a later banned person automatically removed upon request, or at least reviewed.. I figure if they got themselves the boot, their opinion shouldn't count for much.
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A lot of times I can pick out a retaliatory feedback, but I have to be willing to take the time to read both member's feedbacks, maybe the Exchange thread, etc. I think a lot of people don't do that.
Quite true. Though also consider how many 'trades with/knives sold too' blue members have occurred without a hitch. It'd be a shame to punish the masses because of what is really quite a small number of scammers we get here.
I guess the more suggestions I'm reading, the more I'm thinking best solution here is to just proceed as is and for f*$%'s sake use some COMMON SENSE and research before you make the trade, etc. When I look at some of these threads people start and then the people they claim scammmed them, I wonder why they even considered the trade/deal in the first place
I haven't had a deal go awry for me yet (Thankfully!), but I can probably attribute that to the lengths to which I go to research someone before I do a trade with them. I search their profile here on BF, post, feedback, and then their username and if I can find it, there real name, through Google/etc.
-sh00ter
I've seen more issues with trades. I think anyone trading or selling should have a paid membership.
When you sell to an unpaid member you have protection with PP if you send it with SC to a confirmed address.
If you take a USPS MO you can cash it before shipping.
On a trade you have no protection.
When you sell to an unpaid member you have protection with PP if you send it with SC to a confirmed address.
If you take a USPS MO you can cash it before shipping.
On a trade you have no protection.
I don't do trades at all unless its someone I know, and its done with a phone call or PM.
I'm just making suggestions for others. Most cases I've seen go bad are trades, and many with members that had similar feedback. I don't know how they would decide who ships first. I still think a paid membership to sell or trade would be good for all. Its not like a paid membership cost much.
But like I said, its not going to affect me either way.
- Joined
- May 8, 2013
- Messages
- 79
What about having members agree to a short Blade Forum "by laws" like what I found in the Sticky section before they are allowed access. That way their is no excuses, makes it black and white. Violate the by-Laws and you are in the wrong. For example I believe Esav Benyamin posted the following:
I called the Washington State Attorney General’s office for advice. They told me, “When an offer to sell something is accepted, it becomes a contract. The definition of a contract is, ‘A payment made for goods or services received.’ If you pay them money and the goods are not received, the contract is not fulfilled and the seller is liable.”
If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period. Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.
It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.
That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case."
Thread is located at : http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/744662-***-Mailing-Security
An example would be (I just threw this together in 5 minutes)
By entering into the market place to buy, sell, or trade You agree to the following terms:
1) When an offer to sell something is accepted, it becomes a contract.
a) Definition of a contract is, ‘A payment made for goods or services received.’
b) If you pay them money and the goods are not received, the contract is not fulfilled and the seller is liable.
c) The seller owes it to him/herself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required.
There is soooo much great information in the sticky section. A solid by-law could be put together in a short amount of time. Keep it short and simple. This will let people know what the community has decided is the norm.
Just a thought. Now as the the new guy I am going to go back to the corner and color.
I called the Washington State Attorney General’s office for advice. They told me, “When an offer to sell something is accepted, it becomes a contract. The definition of a contract is, ‘A payment made for goods or services received.’ If you pay them money and the goods are not received, the contract is not fulfilled and the seller is liable.”
If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period. Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.
It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.
That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case."
Thread is located at : http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/744662-***-Mailing-Security
An example would be (I just threw this together in 5 minutes)
By entering into the market place to buy, sell, or trade You agree to the following terms:
1) When an offer to sell something is accepted, it becomes a contract.
a) Definition of a contract is, ‘A payment made for goods or services received.’
b) If you pay them money and the goods are not received, the contract is not fulfilled and the seller is liable.
c) The seller owes it to him/herself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required.
There is soooo much great information in the sticky section. A solid by-law could be put together in a short amount of time. Keep it short and simple. This will let people know what the community has decided is the norm.
Just a thought. Now as the the new guy I am going to go back to the corner and color.
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- Joined
- May 8, 2013
- Messages
- 79
Just wanted to add I do know there is a "Rules for the exchange area"
Man there is a lot of good info there, but it is a lot to take in. Anyone who has had a power point presentation can relate. Too much info can make it hard to process or remember.
By having a condensed clear version (maybe a thread they have to post in saying they read and understand the By-Laws).
Hypothetically I could look to see if the seller agreed to the by-laws and use that to help settle a dispute. Or a new guy with no feedback score will realize he should ship first.
Sorry back to coloring.
Edit: A paid membership will help keep scams down, but it will not educate or help with disputes. Possibly do both Paid membership and sign the by-laws thread.
Man there is a lot of good info there, but it is a lot to take in. Anyone who has had a power point presentation can relate. Too much info can make it hard to process or remember.
By having a condensed clear version (maybe a thread they have to post in saying they read and understand the By-Laws).
Hypothetically I could look to see if the seller agreed to the by-laws and use that to help settle a dispute. Or a new guy with no feedback score will realize he should ship first.
Sorry back to coloring.
Edit: A paid membership will help keep scams down, but it will not educate or help with disputes. Possibly do both Paid membership and sign the by-laws thread.
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