Mentoring Program?

... Right now, my mentorship/relationship time is pretty much booked up, and I don‘t have time for many new ones.

So,... because knifemaking is such a male dominated field, I’ve decided to only consider new female mentorees between the ages of 18 and 35.
 
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...It’s a noble cause… :)

“Before enlightenment, quench the blade and stroke the edge.
After enlightenment, quench the blade and stroke the edge.”
 
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The Canadian scene is definately smaller than the USA

The only Hammerin I've see was just this past summer , but it was in Alberta - the fee + travel & hotel costs would have come to $1,000 - plus a week off.
I would have loved to go.

Re the CKG - they have very bad website maintenance, so if you are using a "ckg" email address, try the ones for the individual makers on the contact page.

If you can make it to the CKG show, seeing peoples work in person can help you decide who has experience and skill with the styles you want.

If you can make it towards Quebec, Christof Derringer is an ABS MS so he is familiar with the standards being judged on that level of peer review.

Plus he is a nice guy.

I believe he offers paid lessons & maybe you can reach some type of agreement.
 
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Tai Goo said:
I think it's also wise to realize that if your chosen mentor gets the idea you are just trying to get something for nothing,... this most likely be taken as disrespect. So, at least "offer to pay" for lessons or do some kind of trade in the beginning.

Another thing is, if you do get a good relationship started, don't bug your mentor! Don’t wear out your welcome. You have to show that you respect his time and energy. It usually takes years to develop a good mentor relationship. So, take your time and go slow. It will help if your mentor sees that you are committed to knifemaking and aren't just looking for a quick easy fix.
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I couldn't have stressed that any better, most of these makers we look up to do this for a living and any time they were able to put into mentoring would either take time from their job or personal time. Even if they were being paid in some way it should still be considered a gift to the now maker.

I am a very easy going take it as it comes sort of person, not pushy at all, and I tend to forget that others are not the same way.

Tai Goo said:
... Right now, my mentorship/relationship time is pretty much booked up, and I don‘t have time for many new ones.

So,... because knifemaking is such a male dominated field, I’ve decided to only consider new female mentorees between the ages of 18 and 35.
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Dang looks like I strike out on all bases:( I am over 35 and not female.


:p
 
There are several points that were brought up that hit very hard on the mentoring. Many don't want to hear that their knife is poor, here there or all over; a relationship between the teacher and the student is most important; is the student likely to return "something" to the teacher and I don't mean praise for their work ; is the student just interested in making the one knife which means the effort made by the teacher in a one on one is in reality wasted, unless he knows this in advance and still decides to go ahead which I can't see happening; does the student have the time needed and will they put it towards the learning thing ; does the student really realize the amount of effort that will be demanded: and here's a really big one does the student have or intend to get the equipment needed? So you see the system in place now with people like Stacy always giving and explaning and new people poping in to learn some about knives doesn't really require the mentor unless the student is already very involved and doing some reasonable work . This forum gives all the help for everyone at all stages of development. If you can stand the strain of someone really juroring your work you may be ready for a mentor. How many knives have you made that you think have quality . Do you still believe your work is as good as the teacher's but you just don't get the big price for it? Keep selling for sure and keep improving your work and if you are ready to move ahead to another level then contact one or more highly rated makers and ask if you can send a knife off to them for a look see. And then as I have heard and read regularly will you still feel you are doing the great work no matter what that mentor said. Now there is the dissapointment all teachers have to deal with. Frank
 
Some what off topic, but I feel the teacher with a true gift is the one that can tell you your work is crap without making you feel like crap. It is a fine line that only the best can tread. Now back on subject, what I was thinking of when I started this thread is not someone to tell you if your work was good or bad, but what you can do to improve your work. The fine details that a new maker may not see and the seasoned maker doesn't even think about any more because it is something that is that natural for him to do. When I started designing the first Bowie that I made, I posted my drawings here. I got lots of looks good comments and a few build suggestions, but the one that stood out the most to me, and is something that I do right away now, was from Nick Wheeler way back in December of 2009
Aesthetics are subjective.... so of course any thoughts I may have are my opinion and we know what those are worth

But since you asked!

I think it's a cool start, but with a few small changes could be a REALLY cool knife!

It could flow smoother in the handle/guard/blade transition. The lines don't quite flow together... and I say that because my eye stops at that transition.

I think if you just altered the choil/ricasso area a bit, and made the guard thinner and with a smoother radius it would make all the difference in the world.

Remember, this was free
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Some simple guidance that influenced what I do with that style of knife and I hadn't even finished my first knife yet. I made some alterations based on that comment and was blown away buy the difference it made to the overall look of the knife.

Now something else that I may not have communicated well is that I was not suggesting a structured mentor program through BFC, but rather a list of experienced makers, possibly a sticky, that may be willing to evaluate a knife for a new maker at no cost to the experienced maker. Therefore this new maker has made at least one knife with the guidance of the forum members, is planning to make more, and would like to know what they could do better. The other way to do it is for the new maker to just start a thread and request that someone look at their knife in person. The problem with that the new maker could get anyone agreeing to look instead of someone that knows what they are doing. The list of willing makers would just be sort of a safe guard.

I really like the way this thread is going there are a lot of good points being made.
 
Well, now this is just what I wrote about. If there has to be pussy footing around and stories told that are make believe then you are certainly not ready for a mentor. If the work is poor then if not pointed out to you how do you correct it. If you saw the problem, then why didn't you correct it or start over to get it right? It hurts doesn't it? Thre mentor is not yet needed. This is the tenacity you must have to continue. Not talking about it or talking only about what might be right and not what is bad will not advance the student and leaves the teacher wondering why he is involved with this individual. You can't believe it until you are doing it but I swear the teacher is more frustrated and disapointed than the student. You want to learn? Then be prepared to hear it all. Once you get pleasure out of finding out your mistakes then you are on the learning path. Frank
 
Frank Niro said:
Well, now this is just what I wrote about. If there has to be pussy footing around and stories told that are make believe then you are certainly not ready for a mentor. If the work is poor then if not pointed out to you how do you correct it. If you saw the problem, then why didn't you correct it or start over to get it right? It hurts doesn't it? There mentor is not yet needed. This is the tenacity you must have to continue. Not talking about it or talking only about what might be right and not what is bad will not advance the student and leaves the teacher wondering why he is involved with this individual. You can't believe it until you are doing it but I swear the teacher is more frustrated and disappointed than the student. You want to learn? Then be prepared to hear it all. Once you get pleasure out of finding out your mistakes then you are on the learning path. Frank
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I am going to have to agree with Frank on this. I fully understand what it means to be a mentor to someone and feel disappointed after you have given them all the tools to do well, but when prodded into the right direction they push back. I am new to knife making, and am not speaking of this, but I do race sailboats at the professional level as a bowman and have had rookies I took under my wing in addition to working as a paid instructor. I have had students ask me to tell them how to improve, and when I tell them what they are doing wrong I get excuses and arguments back. I tell them "you asked me to help you and now you're telling me I don't know what I am talking about?" When a student can say "ok, how do I fix this for next time?" I take it as a sign that they are ready to learn.

Now as a newb to knifemaking, I have sent a few emails to experienced smiths asking specifically what they thought of a certain knife and how I could improve it only to get no response. The closest knifemakers I have found to me are about an hour away, and unfortunately I have not been able to get away to see any of them due to family reasons. I have been fortunate to have some very helpful forumites from across the country offer their phone numbers to give me advice and get a better feel for what i am trying to do. No mastersmiths or anyone like that, but much more experienced than I am. If the makers I summoned advice from thought my work was too juvenile to even critique, ok. I will keep making more and hopefully I will find someone who is willing to explain a few finer details to me, or slap me in the back of the head for making an obvious (to them) mistake. I think it is more of a personal thing for anyone to get involved in a full immersion learning environment over months and years, even if only through a couple visits a year. Would I invite a total rookie to use my equipment how they thought it is supposed to be used without me even really liking them? No, and I don't expect a seasoned smith to feel any different. There is a reason you interview for internships in the business world. As much as I like the idea of a list of upper echelon makers putting their names out there for anyone to send them emails asking about the lawn mower blade tactical knife they made, I just don't see them really wanting that. It has been my experience that if you have done something that a more educated person likes, they will contact you.


I really do hope a teacher/student relationship or two grows from this idea, but working on a broad level I just don't see it happening.


-Xander
 
I feel that you don't have to beat someone over the head and break them down to get them to learn. Yes tell them if something isn't right or that it wont work the way they are doing it, but there is no need to belittle them. So some people may not get it though their head that what they are being told is for their own good, but those are the people that get left behind.

When Nick told me that the way I had designed that knife looked wrong, he did it in a clear way that wasn't demeaning and gave me the choice to take his advice or do my own thing. He didn't pussy foot around, he gave his views respectfully. Now if I had chose not to listen to him, I doubt that he would have ever given me advise again. With fast14riot's example he is being paid to teach these people, and I am sure that when he instructs someone a way to do something on the boat he does it in much the same way, its not till after they argue about not understanding that the gloves come off. I am sure that if he hadn't been paid though that he would walk away from the argumentative student. Mind you with what fast14riot is teaching there is no option to choose to listen for the student, its a case of listen or someone could die.

Lets say in your town there is a teenage kid that made the most unbelievable knife shaped object from a piece of wood he found in the park and some mild steel that was in the neighbors recycle bin and he did so using files and sand paper on his own, on the other side of town there was a kid that had good steel, and all the best tools available to him yet he made what looked like a prison shank. Who would you rather teach? How would you tell them what they did wrong? Now lets throw something else into the equation, the first kid is one of those people that are naturally good at everything they do, but they don't have the ambition to take it further, yet the second kid is an open book and wants to do better and will listen to anything you have to say and will go right home and try it. Ideally a mentor would get a combination of both kids, naturally talented and an open book willing to be filled with knowledge.

I am one of those people that believes in constant learning and that there will always be someone out there that knows more than I do and is better than I am, but I am also always challenging myself to be that top dog. I can also be pretty pig headed too, try to belittle me or smack some sense into me and you will run into a brick wall, or nothing at all because I would be gone. Yet treat me with respect and teach me as an intellectual equal I am as easy to get through as the air around you.
 
All good points, but truly, "self critique" is the most important thing.

If a student is unwilling to critique him or herself, doesn’t have the skills to do so and/or doesn't want to learn how, any critiquing by a mentor is a waste of time. As a student in art school I always looked at critique as a way to confirm or question what I already believed to be true, good or bad. If I thought the critique was unfair or unenlightened, then yes,… I would defend myself,... I was "required to".

The biggest part of what critique is all about, is to learn how to critique one's self.

Self critique is the most valuable tool any artist or craftsman can have.

"You are your own master."
 
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Many things about knife making can have many different approaches. For instance, knife shapes and materials used. The quality of work decides the value of work done. There is no need to relate this to dollars, size, shape or even practical function. I am not in any way refering to anyone here in this thread but I will continue to argue you cannot ask to learn and refuse the answers you receive that may hurt your feelings. Success can be great in sales if you have a "trapped" market place or your friends and folks are encouraging you along, but when you expand into a market that many are trying for, we now must compete. How many want to be told that this or that is not done in an acceptable manner? Not long ago I read in one of the forums where a member wanted to have all degrees of quality in workmanship accepted saying it really didn't make much of a difference. Well the result here is those that know better just don't do the accepting They know what the differences are. Because new makers do WIPs with pictures and responses all appear to be positive does this now make the maker a teacher? Well perhaps to those not as experienced as him. Is it wrong for encouragement to come from experienced makers even if the work is very incomplete? We are back to the "how do you learn"? You don't correct your problems if you don't know you have them. A mentor isn't just someone that pats you on the back and consols you over hours of work that have gone wrong only near the end of the knife making project. The mentor must be honest and willing to present what he sees bad and good. There are many makers that take terrific enjoyment and even make some money by not needing someone to help get their work improved.It is as it is and that's it. Fine, they will never need a teacher or a mentor, nor should they bother to look for help, but if you are serious about continued advancement let your mistakes and errors be the things that drive you to improve and realize the sooner you can overcome these problems the more satisfaction you will get from your work. Completing 50 to 100 knives very seldom is enough to allow that persons work to be recognized as done by an experienced maker.By the way after 35 years or so I still am reaching out to improve my work. Yes, I truly am a slow learner. Frank
 
Some good answers above.

One of the biggest drawbacks that I see to a mail order critique is that;

in person communication with back & forth while the knife is in hand can convey so much varied info so quickly,

while a written response by the mentor may take a few hours to get across the same points.
 
It's a funny thing about mentoring... not everyone can do it. Likewise, not everyone is cut out to be a mentee.

I've mentored several staff members over the years to do things I used to do. Here's what I've learned about the process.

A mentor is more than a teacher. The mentor has to understand what the mentee needs, not just what they need to know. If a mentee lacks self confidence you have to know how to help them build that, or they won't be as effective at retaining the knowledge you share (because they'll be afraid to put it into practice). Some mentees need a shove to make them actually DO something rather than talk about it incessantly. The point is, it isn't just about sharing knowledge. And to understand what someone needs, it really helps to be able to observe them... in part because people are all too often unaware of what they really need. You can't just expect someone to say "I lack confidence, so I'll need you to push me to do things you think I'm ready to do." If only the world was that simple.

Also, mentoring is a very personalized experience. Examples and analogies that work for one mentee will fall flat for others. It's important that you understand something about the mentees background and mindset to know how to get ideas across to them. Using words they don't understand, for example, will only lead to confusion, frustration, and reduction in self confidence. Sets you back farther than you would otherwise advance.

Anyway, the point is to REALLY mentor someone you need to know more about them than what they want to do.

That said, it occurs to me that anyone interested in passing on skills can make short educational videos with voice-over, and post links online. Not quite the same as mentoring, to be sure, but it does give people a means to share knowledge without all the trappings and incumberances of a mentor-mentee relationship.

- Greg
 
Yes it is so much easier to get your point across verbally and face to face as apposed to over the phone or in type, you loose the tone and inflections that you would have in the spoken word and the body language if not done in person.

I still don't understand how Frank thinks this is about getting approval, it is about finding out what you are doing wrong. If you are following the spirit of why I started this thread, a critique is asked for to find ways to improve, that in itself is saying that you know there is something wrong with how you are doing it and asking for help to correct it. I really think that you and I may be actually arguing the same side but using wording that is muddying the view for each other.

Also my reasons for doing a WIP (not saying you are accusing me of anything Frank) is not to teach, but to learn. I even made a statement to that effect at the end of the first post. By showing how I am going about doing what I do, I am hoping that someone may be able to catch things before they become a bad habit. Others do WIPs to teach, and some just like to show how they make a knife or what ever it is to give us a glimpse into their world.
 
"Yes it is so much easier to get your point across verbally and face to face as apposed to over the phone or in type, you loose the tone and inflections that you would have in the spoken word and the body language if not done in person." Unky

Yeah, mentoring is a personal thing...

I once offered an online mentoring program. It wasn't free though. It didn't fly right away, so I didn't push it and did some other stuff. (but if anyone’s interested, I’ll still take your money.) :)

Just for the records,... I'm much better in person...
 
I think I understand whats going on here I used the word mentoring wrong and should have used critique instead. I would change the title but then people would get all confused about whats going one here:p
 
Everyone wants it to be free,… but it’s not free. It comes at an expense to the mentor for sure, and in many cases the mentor just creates his own competition. There’s really no logical reason for it,… other than some type of social approval.

In the old days information wasn’t shared like it is now. There wasn’t the internet, and craftsmen protected their “trade secrets“.

Can the internet take the place of personal, meaningful, long term mentorship?

Something is gained,… but something is also lost.

It’s really kind of sad. :(
 
unky_gumbi said:
I think I understand whats going on here I used the word mentoring wrong and should have used critique instead. I would change the title but then people would get all confused about whats going one here:p
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I tried that too. I set up a forum specifically for critique. Everyone thought it was a great idea at first. The traffic was there, but it flopped.

I think the fact is that people in general just don't like criticism,... especially public criticism. Some may ask for it and say they want it, but they really don't.

I don't. I can do it to myself and so can anyone...

Self criticism is the hardest, but it is doable... and free! :)
 
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I would love to have one of my knives picked apart by a maker I respect and told what I did right and what I did wrong even if I did most of it wrong. It is a service I would be willing to pay a reasonable price for if it was going to help me be a better maker.

My whole trip in to knife making wasn't planned. I made my first knife just to see if I could, and I figured while I was at it why not make two, the steel was cheap enough (5160) and the tool investment was next to nothing because I used basic hand tools. Two years later I am still doing it despite having chronic tennis elbow, dropped more money than I planned on a proper belt grinder, and plan my housing around setting up a shop. I really think that the steel dust is addictive:o
 
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