Meta: I thought we had a deal?

Gents, that is called honor. Dave makes no excuses, does not get into a semantics debate, just says ok ill send a knife. If everyone here was like him we would not even have this section of the forums. There would never be a complaint. Maybe some will learn from the example. Then again probably not. Too bad.---Kevin
 
I have learned something about the deals that go bad and are reported on this forum. You have one persons side of how things went and you have the other's. The truth probably falls somewhere in the middle. We are quite often too quick to judge and more often than not weigh in heavily in favor of the better known BF member. We must be careful when doing this as we may be doing an injustice to the less well known member.

What is needed to judge a situation is all the facts. Without these facts we are just jumping to conclusions and we are using our hearts not our heads to reach these conclusions.
 
Shortgoth, I can understand. I dont feel as though what I posted was at all a "character attack". I wanted to know exactly what it was that would cause a person to have such a "fluid" view of morality. I found it. And you are correct, I dont know a bit about you. But what I know about you, from what YOU have told me... is enough. Pissed me off? Nah. Made me curious? Definately! However, I wont retort back with a deceptive if not subtle character attack as you did. I do know a bit about said disorder, and know what the diagnosis entails for it. How? During a bout of depression, they tried to diagnose me. But I didnt have the required 3 of 7. Now, my reasons for posting such information? Well let people make their own decisions, but from what I know combined with what you tell me, people of such nature are not to be trusted well. This entire thread boils down to people doing what they think is right. You may very well be the exception, I dont know if you aren't. So like I said before, best of luck to you in your sociopathic nature. NW

Oh forgot to mention, if you would like to discuss this any further, please put it in my inbox: Giripaid@hotmail.com Ill respond as soon as I can.
 
Lifter/Dave:

That'll teach me to post at 6am. I was of course talking about the New Testament but since I opened my big yap without being specific, email me your address SG and I will send you a knife. Since I didnt specify the new covenant, you are right.
Click to expand...

Posting at 6am...never good for me either, though normally it's just because that's when I get off work :). As for the knife, well you obviously are a man of your word, but I wouldn't take advantage of something that was merely a miscommunication, I personally treat the Hebrew text and the New Testament as one. Probably because when we studied it in school we just used one book with both texts rather than two seperate ones.

AlecWire:

That actually shows just how little you know about both me, my past, and antisocial sociopathy. The past thing is mentioned because I lived with a woman who had bipolar disorder for a while, which is why it sprang to mind. I was just using it as an example of a serious medical condition that shows it's effect in the way people behave. Although granted it's not an entirely apt example as that's cuased by a chemical imbalance rather than something purely mental.

Northwind:

Fair enough, you have your opinions, I have mine.

KWM:

This is back to the ethics debate again. The problem is that there are three sides to every story. Person A's side, person B's side, and the truth. As Kevin rightly said, if everyone were the same as Lifter/Dave, there wouldn't be a problem. But most people, no matter how much they mean to be straight, up-front, and honest, will have thier own bias. It's one of the first things we learned in our sociology/history/RE classes back in high school. This could no doubt be minimised by posting entire sequences of e-mails, but that's a huge breach of privacy to most people and they won't feel comfortable with it.

Since I love quoting sayings, here's another one. "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics". Two people can look at exactly the same facts, figures, and outright truths, and draw completely different conclusions. It's human nature.

Gah, first thing I do when I get in from work these days is check Bladeforums. I need coffee if I'm going to be typing at this time of day :)
 
Well stated Danny/shortgoth. What you have pointed out is quite true. I do not know if what you posted in that other thread are your true views or ones that you thouhgt would bring a rise out of people. If it is the first, I stick by what I have said pertaining to ever doing business with someone with those views. If it is the second, you succeeded beautifully. The problem is that in doing so you probably have hurt your standing on this forum.
 
...(Deep breath, think it through; measure twice, cut once)...

To paraphrase a fellow forumite, "manomanomanoman", ad infinitum; ad nauseum...

So, in no particular order...(and IMNSFHO)

Knife trades and sales between individuals on the forums should be for fun; as a hobby, and generally speaking, not profit driven. "Generally speaking" being the operative term here...

A deal is a deal when both parties agree to 'terms', the item has been paid for/delivered, and both parties are in agreement that the deal was finished.

So, if you offer a knife for sale or trade, with a set price or terms, you are essentially obligated to sell/trade that particular knife to the first person that meets your terms.

To act or do otherwise would be indicative of a skewed sense of moral values. To act or do otherwise would be to the eventual detriment of this particular web site, and to the members that frequent it.

On this particular web site, the members use the words 'Fair, deal, honorable, and satisfied' to mean just one thing...and the usage of those words shouldn’t be open to debate. At this particular site, those words mean one thing to the majority, and that meaning is understood.

If a member, any member, young or old, new or experienced, takes exception to that what is considered common understanding at this particular web site; I for one would be happy to recommend they leave immediately.

This "Is Not" primarily a 'sale/trade' forum...that is secondary to the knife discussion that takes place. That we, as enthusiasts, have a place to expand the horizons and enjoyment of our hobby, is an added 'perk'.

As 'hobbyists', we have a common bond. As hobbyists we can enjoy that what collectively lifts us up. As hobbyists, we simply cannot allow financial benefit to cloud our decisions.

Again, if a member, any member, takes exception to that premise, I’d recommend that they vacate the premises (pun), 'Post haste'...

It 'Is' all about trust, faith, and belief...in our fellow forumites. There should be no room for 'waffling' on this.

Also, for the 'non-believer’s' out there, I for one would like to witness the approach taken by 'management' towards any forumite that offered any sale/trade item up 'for highest bid'. I think we’d all agree it would be a short-lived post.

That being said, and understanding 'that part' of the rules...a person would have to be pretty shifty to think they can pull that kind of highest bid 'stuff' on the side here.

Deals? If you are made an offer for sale/trade at your listed price…and if you agree, (email, phone, forum posting, etc.), then you're are 1/3 of the way there. Once items have been mailed/received/paid for, you’ve reached the 2/3’s mark. And once you’ve 'Both' agreed it’s a (done) deal, then it is...and not one moment before.

Positive GB&U posting after that would just be the 'icing', provided it’s unsolicited...

I could go on about this, and I probably will eventually, but what it boils down to is, "If you don’t have the ethics to be honest in your dealings here, you probably don’t belong here"

Now, with all the nice 'stuff' out of the way...
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Mikemck, private emails should remain private at all costs. To have it otherwise violates the trust given between the parties involved. I can not openly and honestly answer fellow forumites email queries for information if I’m distracted with the thought that my private comments and thoughts may end up posted in an open public forum. You may be so emotionally shallow as to feel a 'voyeuristic' need to delve into others private lives and thoughts, but I for one don’t wish to feed your 'need'.

Shortgoth, your conditioned 'diagnosis' doesn’t justify your position, and whereas I wouldn’t normally wish ill will on a fellow forumite; should you find yourself suffering an untimely, albeit painful, demise, I wouldn’t shed a tear...(That enough attention for you ya little maggot?)
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Simply put, "a code of ethics, a code of honor, an environment of respect, an environment of trust"...Anything less here is simply unacceptable.
 
ShortGoth,
I work nights too which is why I post at this ridiculous hour.
I appreciate you saying you dont want to take advantage of a situation because of a miscommunication. That is very HONORABLE of you.
You're welcome to it if you change your mind, just email me your address and your choice between:1-Remington 2 blade trapper R12D 2-Victorinox Translucent Classic or 3-a Case Office Knife.

Kevin,
Thanks for what you said, I appreciate it and it goes both ways.
Folks, in case you dont know, Kevin(kh21106), is one of NYC's Finest, who along with the firemen and other rescuers were the heroes of 9/11, and I am proud to call him friend.
 
Originally posted by Melvin-Purvis

Mikemck, private emails should remain private at all costs. To have it otherwise violates the trust given between the parties involved. I can not openly and honestly answer fellow forumites email queries for information if I’m distracted with the thought that my private comments and thoughts may end up posted in an open public forum. You may be so emotionally shallow as to feel a 'voyeuristic' need to delve into others private lives and thoughts, but I for one don’t wish to feed your 'need'.
Click to expand...


Here is the short answer: Then don't post your emails Melvin.

Here is the long answer:

If two parties are posting here in GB&U, and one is clearly lying about what was said or agreed to, and the email will clearly show what was said or agreed to, then post it. There is no reason to try and determine who is and who is not lying, based on what two forum members care to say here, when you have an undisputable written record. It's really as simple as that.
You don't need to rely on heresay, opinion, innuendo, or what another person feels like telling you if there is a written record.

Now, if 2 people can come here and post the facts, then of course there is no need to post email(s), as the facts are clear and undisputed, and the only point of contention is a disagreement about what is right & what is wrong.

As an example, if joe blow posts here saying I had made a deal with him to sell my Sebenza to him for $100, and I emphatically reply that I made no such offer, I would encourage joe to post the email in which I made such an offer....why? Because as improbable as it would seem, it is of course possible that I did make such an offer, and if there is an email that can be posted to clear away any doubt one way or the other, then it should be posted so everyone can make an informed decision.

In this particular example, I personally would think that I was stating the truth, simply because I have never seen a Sebenza sell for $100, but it's just possible I did say I would sell it for $100, for some unknown reason, and if I did, then I should stand behind what I said, and sell it for $100, and Joe has every right to post here letting people know what a weasel I am, and to post an email to clear up any doubt if I should feel the need to lie about it.

There we have a case of two people saying two very different things, and one is clearly lying. Post the relevant email. There is no need to try and determine for yourself what was said based on what either party says, when there is a written record.

My desire to see an email posted has nothing to do with a 'voyeuristic' need, any more than does reading a post here in GB&U, without the emails posted.

If you however feel you can make an informed and intelligent decision based on less than complete information, then you are of course free to do so, but it would seem rather pointless.

Again though Melvin, don't post emails if you feel it is wrong.
 
From: mickmck@cox-internet.com | Block Address | Add to Address Book

To: "Ben Kriete" <brkriete@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Sebenza

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:13:53 -0800





Ben,

$100 is fine for the Sebenza. I will ship it as soon as I get your paypal.

Thanks,
Mike.
Click to expand...

Well Mike, where's my damn Sebenza?

Just kidding. I only wanted to show that it can take all of five minutes to fake up an email; I didn't even have to look anywhere to make anything up, just copied and pasted another email from my Yahoo inbox, replaced the text and email address with the addy you give in your signature, and here we are. I don't think I proved you offered me a Sebenza for $100; I just proved I can fake an email.
 
Burke,

That is a good point, and it surely would be possible to fake up an email. There will always be problems with trying to get the facts, and if someone is quite determined to hide them it can be impossible, but I would still call for posting emails if the emails can prove or disprove what was said.

Now, if you posted an email that did in fact show that I agreed to sell you my Sebenza for $100, and I still disputed it, with a copy of the email I sent to you, there might be a problem, and people would then have to make a decision based on the available information.

My point is that deliberately ignoring information that is available when trying to make a decision is not wise...Why make a decision at all if you have not gathered all the information that you reasonably can?
 
Mike, I agree with you that e-mails can be valuable tools for decoding what the parties involved in an interchange meant. I'm glad that you didn't take offense at my using your name in my example. I simply wanted to point out that it wouldn't take a lot to either alter a few key details in an email (price, knives involved, whatever), and post it up, and that a) posting private emails should be discouraged in all but the most extreme cases of needing to prove something, and b) emails should be taken with a big ol' grain of salt.

Now, about that Sebenza...I have proof! :D :)
 
Burke,

I'll get that Sebenza out to you ASAP :D

I'm still in favor of posting the email.

What is the difference between paraphrasing an email and posting the actual email? Either way, you are telling anyone who cares to read the post what someone said to you in an email.

Here is an example:

Joe blow emails me this:

Mike,
Your Sebenza for my Glock 30 + $200 cash sounds like a great deal. As far as I am concerned, we have a deal.

Then joe emails me this:

Mike,
I did not know the values involved, and would like to change the terms of the deal to make it better for me. I know we had a deal, but I would like to change it or call the whole thing off now.


I then post here in GB&U:

mikemck: I had a deal with Joe blow to trade my Sebenza for his Glock 30 + $200 cash, and now he is trying to weasel out of it because he claims he did not know the values involved, and wants to make it better for him.
He is a real scumbag, and it not to be trusted.

joeblow: Mike, we did not have a firm deal. I am sorry you misunderstood what I wrote, but we did not have a deal.

Maybe I'm just too dense to see the difference between putting it into my own words and posting the actual email...can anyone explain it to me?
 
...as I stated previously, it's an issue of implied privacy and trust between two individuals...
 
Melvin,

That post of yours should be read by anyone who is interested in getting serious in the knife hobby. Very well Done!

The thing that keeps me interested is that you can make deals based on a handshake that may not come to fruition for a few years. That handshake is based on honor and that is one of the few things that can not be permanantly taken away from a person. (The person has to take it away from themselves.) The knife world is one of the few places left in society where it still works and means something. If the day comes when I see that eroding, it will be time to find another hobby.
 
As a general rule it's impolite to post email without the author's permission. IMHO anyone who lies about the content of email he's sent is tacitly giving permission to post it. People who lie and swindle and accuse their victims of being dishonorable for not covering up for them are the worst kind of whiners, IMHO. (The prisons are full of them; convicts have awful tales to tell about how dishonorable it was for the victims and witnesses to testify against them; they should have minded their own business.)

The same goes for swindlers who accuse their victims of violation of privacy in posting their names, snailmail addresses, etc. to warn others. They don't get any sympathy from me.

Etiquette is a two-way street. It would normally be a violation of etiquette to handcuff someone and drag him off and put his mug shot in the newspaper with his name and address, too. Criminals can't expect to be treated with normal etiquette. (They do expect it, but that's their problem, not ours.)
 
...and the thread drift problem has also been corrected sir..."

To wit; "I'd like to make a suggestion to everyone who sees these threads, too -- think about whether you have anything to contribute before you contribute anything. I think sometimes people who were not involved in a transaction do have something to contribute, explaining (and sometimes working out) what the standards are when the standards don't seem to be clear to both the parties involved in a transaction. I think other times they don't." Captain Cougar

To ensure my paranoia is kept in check, I'm considering deleting my email address from my member profile, that way, any questions and dealings forthwith will be held here in the open...lol

Mel
 
Let me clarify the part of my post dealing with one on one negotiation:

Example:

Buck 110 for sale by Mr. Blue for $40

Mr. Brown emails offering $30

There is no deal as negotiations have not begun. Only an offer has been made.

Just for the sake of arguement, let's say Mr. Blue emails back and says "no, but I'd take $35"

That is the beginning of a negotiation. I'm of the opinion that Mr. Blue has countered an original offer and entered a negotiation, thereby entering a verbal contract. Without the response of Mr. Brown as to whether he will accept that counter negotiation, Mr. Blue cannot in good faith then sell the knife to Mr. Pink.

This argument collapses if Mr. Brown does not get back to Mr. Blue within a reasonable timeframe. To avoid this problem Mr. Blue would counter with "no, but I'd take $35. I'll give you an hour to decide, then I'm entertaining other offers"

Might sound hokey, but I've seen it happen where the party who countered almost immediately accepted a higher offer before getting an answer from the party who made the initial offer.
 
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