Review Metallic Bonded CBN waterstones

DeadboxHero

DeadboxHero

Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
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These are the Gritomatic CBN metallic bonded waterstones made for the edgepro and hapstone system.


I Just custom made a stone holder for the edge pro stones so I can use them to there full extent since I don't use systems.


I've been using these extensively for the past two weeks
Different steels, different friends to try them, different methods of dressing and using them.
Now I have alot to share.


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I got the 1000 grit and the 400 grit.

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This will be a on going detailed review with pictures, text and video.
 
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Nothing else comes close to these stones other then the Venev diamond stones these stones make shapton glass stones look useless as far as how fast thy cut,the 50 grit is not needed for knifes like Spyderco's I would only consider getting that stone if you have hunting knives and use them for chopping tree's and stuff like that to repair damage to a thick edge.

These stones are made by Poltava diamond tools and you can get them from Gritomatic you may also want to get Silicon Carbide so you can refresh the stones as well,I was the first person on the forum to review them and bring them to people's attention and if you want to see a review I did just put Poltava in the search box.Also a lot of people think that the CBN or Diamonds are just on the surface of these stones and they are not they are all threw the Copper Brass mixture and you can use Ferric Chloride to refresh the stones and remove a small layer and I have not tried this yet and I'm not sure if the weaker solutions like MG Chemical's will work fast enough,you can buy 40 to 60% pure Ferric Chloride but the problem is in Canada only business can purchase it not the public and the really high percentage stuff is extremely nasty and attack's every metal you can think of including stainless steel and cast iron and cement I read that someone said the only metal they think Ferric Chloride won't attack is Titanium.

I have all the grit's that Gritomatic offers and if you want stones to do polished edge's on hard to sharpen steels or even just toothy edge's these are great stones,I just sharpened a Manix 2 in M4 and started out with the 120 grit or whatever it is I forget and worked my way up threw all the grit's with the Metallic CBN and finished off with the 8K stone then I dropped back to a Chosera 5K then the 8K and 10K next time I'm just going to see what happens if I use just the 5 and 10K Chosera stones,the reason for going backwards and using the Chosera 5K after using the 8K CBN it's because the if you are going for a polished edge the 8K will still leave scratch's that the 10K Chosera is not going to get unless you want to spend massive amounts of time trying to them out,when I dropped back to the 5K it took no effort at all to get rid of the scratch's from the 8K CBN.



loonybin said:
A) where did you find these?
B) how do they compare to Shapton Glass stones?
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Mo2 said:
Think they tested this and it ate away at the aluminum backing plate.
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Yup.

Also, I'm skeptical of the cut rate vs. durability since that's determined by the grit protrusion in this case. Expose the diamond so much that it's cutting super fast and it's also going to be barely embedded and just as or more prone to rocking out of the matrix as conventional diamond plates with quality bonding. So they may be cutting very fast when prepped a given way (much like a conventional diamond plate fresh from the box) but I would be shocked if those fast-cutting properties lasted without somewhat frequent re-dressing. For the bond to be stronger it would need to have the abrasive more deeply embedded in the material, which lowers the protrusion, and reduces the cut rate.
 
Next question if you have to re-dress metallic cbn, what would be the best method. Then in the long run, are they cost effective compared to bonded or plated diamond stones.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Yup.

Also, I'm skeptical of the cut rate vs. durability since that's determined by the grit protrusion in this case. Expose the diamond so much that it's cutting super fast and it's also going to be barely embedded and just as or more prone to rocking out of the matrix as conventional diamond plates with quality bonding. So they may be cutting very fast when prepped a given way (much like a conventional diamond plate fresh from the box) but I would be shocked if those fast-cutting properties lasted without somewhat frequent re-dressing. For the bond to be stronger it would need to have the abrasive more deeply embedded in the material, which lowers the protrusion, and reduces the cut rate.
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I have been playing with my own resin bond diamond stones and have found the cut rate is pretty amazing even with very little abrasive protrusion, the abrasive is just naturally so much sharper. The abrasive doesn't need to stick out of the bond much more than it's depth of cut on the steel to work.

I would be curious to know how well lapping them on a flat plate with loose Sic or even Alox would work for dressing them. All you are really trying to do is wear away some of the bond to expose the abrasive in the stone. Done right you only wear the stone .0001" or so per dressing.
 
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Diemaker said:
I have been playing with my own resin bond diamond stones and have found the cut rate is pretty amazing even with very little abrasive protrusion, the abrasive is just naturally so much sharper. The abrasive doesn't need to stick out of the bond much more than it's depth of cut on the steel to work.

I would be curious to know how well lapping them on a flat plate with loose Sic or even Alox would work for dressing them. All you are really trying to do is wear away some of the bond to expose the abrasive in the stone. Done right you only wear the stone .0001" or so per dressing.
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The abrasive is probably polycrystalline diamond. Companies like EZE-LAP use it. It's less durable than monocrystalline diamond (which is what DMT and many other diamond stone manufacturers use) but is sharper and fractures to expose fresh cutting surfaces.
 
Nope, very high quality monocrystalline diamond that is processed here in the states, it's the good stuff.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Yup.

Also, I'm skeptical of the cut rate vs. durability since that's determined by the grit protrusion in this case. Expose the diamond so much that it's cutting super fast and it's also going to be barely embedded and just as or more prone to rocking out of the matrix as conventional diamond plates with quality bonding. So they may be cutting very fast when prepped a given way (much like a conventional diamond plate fresh from the box) but I would be shocked if those fast-cutting properties lasted without somewhat frequent re-dressing. For the bond to be stronger it would need to have the abrasive more deeply embedded in the material, which lowers the protrusion, and reduces the cut rate.
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I haven't had any issues with the Venev bonded diamond stones. I'm going to get these new stones from gritomatic from the m2 sharpening kick starter. Though the stones will be diamond and not cbn. I suspect they will be even better than the venev.
 
Mo2 said:
I haven't had any issues with the Venev bonded diamond stones. I'm going to get these new stones from gritomatic from the m2 sharpening kick starter. Though the stones will be diamond and not cbn. I suspect they will be even better than the venev.
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I didn't say that there would be any problems with them. Just that there's not a clear advantage to them over other formats. If they offer a combination of features you find appealing, that's fine. I'm just saying that there's nothing remarkable about the dynamics being observed. They're not magic or anything--there are concrete reasons why it's performing the way it is, and there are tradeoffs involved.
 
On the testing Hapstone did Konstantin told me it just muddied and stained the blank,they may have been using weaker Ferric Chloride and if the stuff was strong enough to eat the it would be to strong for the stone because you would have no way to control how fast the Copper and Brass would come off it would be more like chaos where you would throw it in in hope for the best.

Mo2 said:
Think they tested this and it ate away at the aluminum backing plate.
Click to expand...
 
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FortyTwoBlades said:
I didn't say that there would be any problems with them. Just that there's not a clear advantage to them over other formats. If they offer a combination of features you find appealing, that's fine. I'm just saying that there's nothing remarkable about the dynamics being observed. They're not magic or anything--there are concrete reasons why it's performing the way it is, and there are tradeoffs involved.
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I think bonded stones will last longer and be more for giving .. To the average guy because you can't knock off diamonds like you can dmt stones which I've done on my coarse dmt (yea my bad). I also feel a more crisp edge, nicer scratch pattern and if I take it to mirror edge it just makes it nicer end results... But that could just be due to me.

The prices aren't that much more than diamond stones so I'd spring for bonded stones over the non bonded. Just makes sense to me. As for lasting longer that is indeed variable and I've yet to use them very long as they've only been on the market for a short amount of time and some people have dmt stones that have lasted 10+ years.

But yea I agree that they are not necessary nor will anyone see huge advantage over something else.
 
So far for me the cut rate vs durability has been fine and I have not seen any sign's of the CBN falling out that being said only time will tell,I know there are machines from what I have been told that use these diamond stones only in a bigger format and you use these stone to hone part's down to their thickness if you want super tight tolerance's and the person I know that knows someone who has one of these machines say's when they resurface the stones they use a carbide cutting tool and drag it over the surface and they no problems with these stones either,I know the size we are being sold are meant for mold makers that use them to be made by hand like a sanding block.

FortyTwoBlades said:
Yup.

Also, I'm skeptical of the cut rate vs. durability since that's determined by the grit protrusion in this case. Expose the diamond so much that it's cutting super fast and it's also going to be barely embedded and just as or more prone to rocking out of the matrix as conventional diamond plates with quality bonding. So they may be cutting very fast when prepped a given way (much like a conventional diamond plate fresh from the box) but I would be shocked if those fast-cutting properties lasted without somewhat frequent re-dressing. For the bond to be stronger it would need to have the abrasive more deeply embedded in the material, which lowers the protrusion, and reduces the cut rate.
Click to expand...
 
wade7575 said:
So far for me the cut rate vs durability has been fine and I have not seen any sign's of the CBN falling out that being said only time will tell,I know there are machines from what I have been told that use these diamond stones only in a bigger format and you use these stone to hone part's down to their thickness if you want super tight tolerance's and the person I know that knows someone who has one of these machines say's when they resurface the stones they use a carbide cutting tool and drag it over the surface and they no problems with these stones either,I know the size we are being sold are meant for mold makers that use them to be made by hand like a sanding block.
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I'm saying the cutting rate you're seeing is due either to the kind of diamond used, the grit protrusion, or both. That's all. It's nothing remarkable. Just the interplay of the variables that affect all abrasives. I absolutely didn't say to expect problems with it--just that if you increase the grit protrusion (by dressing the face of the stone to abrade the bond) to the point where it's cutting faster than the same abrasive grain with a conventional bond that it will then be equally or more prone to the abrasive grains loosening. Unless the strength of that adhesion is somehow significantly greater than that of a conventional bond, but I don't expect that to be the case, or else we'd be seeing it used for single-layer.
 
This is a detailed video of the set up you see in the picture being used to sharpen a customers Maxamet Para 3 knife that was microchipping while being sharpened.

I'm using the 400, 1000 grit CBN metallic bonded stones at the top

Followed by the blue 3k Naniwa diamond waterstone

Then a 1um diamond spray on a leather strop
I go into lots details and have close ups of each grit finish on the bevel with a USB microscope.

More to come.

I'll do a stand alone review of the stones soon.


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Don't worry I knew you weren't trying to start anything and I was not replying back to you in an offended kind of way where I felt like I to respond I just wanted to state what I have learned about these stones so far,I know you are always very respectable and you don't try to start things and stir up crap no worries I'm not upset at all.

FortyTwoBlades said:
I'm saying the cutting rate you're seeing is due either to the kind of diamond used, the grit protrusion, or both. That's all. It's nothing remarkable. Just the interplay of the variables that affect all abrasives. I absolutely didn't say to expect problems with it--just that if you increase the grit protrusion (by dressing the face of the stone to abrade the bond) to the point where it's cutting faster than the same abrasive grain with a conventional bond that it will then be equally or more prone to the abrasive grains loosening. Unless the strength of that adhesion is somehow significantly greater than that of a conventional bond, but I don't expect that to be the case, or else we'd be seeing it used for single-layer.
Click to expand...
 
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