Review Metallic Bonded CBN waterstones

I think if people use the Silicon Carbide powder method to grind off some of the Copper and Brass if they are not careful enough they could end up exposing to much of the diamond or CBN depending on the type they own and they may have major problems with the diamonds fall and tearing out very easily.

I didn't interpret your comments as such--I was just being absolutely explicit in what I was and wasn't saying. :)
 
I think if people use the Silicon Carbide powder method to grind off some of the Copper and Brass if they are not careful enough they could end up exposing to much of the diamond or CBN depending on the type they own and they may have major problems with the diamonds fall and tearing out very easily.
I used the ferric chloride on a piece of paper towel, it didn't have the effect I was looking for. I didn't get the feedback or finish or cutting speed I was looking for until I dressed the surface with a SiC flatting stone.

I just dressed until it was a uniform beige brassy color.
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Out of the box they have a brownish copper look.
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They cut better after dressing the surface mechanically to lower the copper tin bonder and allow the CBN abrasives to cutting rather then the copper and tin bonder to load and burnish.and cover the CBN in piles of metal shavings

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Gimme some time to write up a review Wade.

Shawn
 
If you are going to use Ferric Chloride I do know they have to be soaked in it for a certain amount of time and how long that is I don't know but if you look youtube you will see guy's that make their own PCB boards and soak them in Ferric Chloride to dissolve the Copper,I don't think with these stones you would need to let them sit in anymore then .5mm of the solution just so the surface is being eaten away but how long is the million dollar question and I'm going to get some Ferric Chloride just not sure when.
 
If you are going to use Ferric Chloride I do know they have to be soaked in it for a certain amount of time and how long that is I don't know but if you look youtube you will see guy's that make their own PCB boards and soak them in Ferric Chloride to dissolve the Copper,I don't think with these stones you would need to let them sit in anymore then .5mm of the solution just so the surface is being eaten away but how long is the million dollar question and I'm going to get some Ferric Chloride just not sure when.
I think it's a dead end Wade.
I have ferric chloride for knife making. Full concentrate.

I swabbed the surface and let it sit for a bit, it works fast. Then I washed it off.

It didn't work as good nor as fast as just rubbing it on a SiC stone flattener with water.

Not to mention that stuff is nasty to play with.
 
These sound like particularly high maintenance stones.
It something new, people have to figure it out. Can you imagine when synthetic japanese waterstones first hit the US market, everyone used oil stones at that time. It would seem particularly high maintenance to deal with water, slurry and flattening :D
 
It something new, people have to figure it out. Can you imagine when synthetic japanese waterstones first hit the US market, everyone used oil stones at that time. It would seem particularly high maintenance to deal with water, slurry and flattening :D

Agreed. Even with it all figured out, waterstones are still kind of a PITA. When I can get away with it, I use diamond plates and spyderco’s ceramic to reduce the wetting, flattening, and drying. But there are just some steels you really need waterstones.

I’m interested to see what steels these stones are the best for.
 
The short amount of time I've been dealing with waterstones, diamond plated, diamond bonded, metallic cbn, you can't get totally away from maintenance, it's part of the process. DeadboxHero mentioned a key thing in his video, they (metallic cbn) don't dish as much. There are metallic diamond stones coming down the line, these will be interesting also.

I was always hearing about carbide tearing. I would have thought that since metallic cbn is softer than diamond, this might not be as much of an issue. No clue but food for thought.

Side note, I've gotten shapton glass and stock stones from edge pro that pretty much needed dressing out of the box. I've also gotten bonded diamond that were not even flat, so you couldn't use them once without uneven use (I've yet to flatten them with Sic to see if I can even use them cause the aluminum is also uneven and flexible). So, using a dressing stone or Sic to clean metallic cbn is a lot easier than fixing a dished stone. I've learned that it's easier with Chosera stones, just run them over a flattening plate every use to bring up swarf and keep them flat. Since I don't have chosera right now, I might use the plate the same way on the shapton glass as I did with the chosera, maybe the edge pro aluminum oxide stones.

I could have sworn I heard somewhere the metallic cbn shouldn't be used on softer steels and DeadboxHero mentioned that 8Cr13MoV they didn't work well at all. I expected that and don't go softer than S30V. In fact, I'll probably continue to use edge pro stones or shapton glass for S30V/S35VN and softer. I'll keep the metallic cbn for M390 and higher. I like the results of the metallic cbn on M390 and S110 so far. I didn't find S110 any more difficult than M390 and I have yet to dress my stones out of the box.

Something else I've noticed comparing metallic cbn to diamond bonded stones, the bonded stones seem to use the water better, a slight absorption, they act a little more like a waterstone (they'll dish and wear like a waterstone). The metallic cbn acts like a plated diamond stone but it's still bonded, not really needing the water, the water runs off, they don't stay wet at all, no absorption that I've seen. They are suppose to be cleaner and I have to agree so far. I've used mineral oil with plated diamond but I think with the metallic cbn, I might go dry from now on. I've tried soap and water to clean them after use, I see no benefit from that so far.

Just my thoughts.
 
Agreed. Even with it all figured out, waterstones are still kind of a PITA. When I can get away with it, I use diamond plates and spyderco’s ceramic to reduce the wetting, flattening, and drying. But there are just some steels you really need waterstones.

I’m interested to see what steels these stones are the best for.



Yes those Spyderco ceramic stones and diamond plates seem simple don't they?


On the contrary, peel back the layers and you'll reveal a deep complexity. You need to use light pressure on the diamond to prevent tear out. It's counter intuitive because pressure is thought to increase the speed but heavy hands make the edge more ragged since the abrasive grains are fully exposed and allowed to cut DEEPER which also rips out the expensive diamond grains that are much much harder then the bond that holds them on the plate.
So you have to remember the grains are fully exposed so you don't need pressure to cut, you need movement. Faster cutting comes from faster movements to increase stoke volume. Very different the a regular stone, and the finish is always coarser the the rating.

Your Spyderco ceramic, simple huh? No flatting? No dishing?

Well that leads to problems, they cut slower, and are prone to huge loading problems.


They need to be cleaned to cut effectively. All that graphite, pencil lead looking stuff is actually metal filings clogging up the abrasives, this slows down the stone and reduces the feedback making them feel slick. This also reduces the quality of the edge since its burnishing more then cutting but most people don't notice.

The brown stones are especially sensitive with loading since they are to remove more steel. They won't produce the same quality of edge if they are clogged up. A light single drop of mineral oil helps but there is no avoiding cleaning.

"Bar keepers friend" is a house hold abrasive cleaning product and it is the most effective means of cleaning out the stones.

I have to stop and clean each time I switch sides on the knife if I want the best results.

Very slow and inconvenient, should only be used for touch ups and honing.

So now you understand why all this information in this review on the CBN stones sounds like a PITA, if you want the best performance you have to take it to that level of detail.

It turns out everything is a PITA.
Especially if your reading the level of detail I provide because I care about the performance.

Most people don't care. But they do when they are not getting the edges they want and can't figure out why hahaha

They fail to care for there tools

We're talking loaded, clogged up stones, dull abrasives that need dressing or bonding that needs to be reduced, not using the proper or apropriate lubricant, stones so dished they look like a tech deck half pipe etc

Haha just like knife steels there is no ultimate stone, they all have these details and trade offs


The use of these CBN stones are no secret.

These stones are used as heavy firepower for people that need to sharpen very hard, very high alloy steels that can be used with heavy pressure without tear out issues and also leave a superior finish without dishing.

If you're just a VG10, 420HC guy they aren't going to be as much of a performance gain because they don't cut soft steels with incredible speeds

If you factor in that they don't dish out like normal stones. That might be worth something especially to edge pro guys.

I'll get some pictures up later

Shawn
 
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The short amount of time I've been dealing with waterstones, diamond plated, diamond bonded, metallic cbn, you can't get totally away from maintenance, it's part of the process. DeadboxHero mentioned a key thing in his video, they (metallic cbn) don't dish as much. There are metallic diamond stones coming down the line, these will be interesting also.

I was always hearing about carbide tearing. I would have thought that since metallic cbn is softer than diamond, this might not be as much of an issue. No clue but food for thought.

Side note, I've gotten shapton glass and stock stones from edge pro that pretty much needed dressing out of the box. I've also gotten bonded diamond that were not even flat, so you couldn't use them once without uneven use (I've yet to flatten them with Sic to see if I can even use them cause the aluminum is also uneven and flexible). So, using a dressing stone or Sic to clean metallic cbn is a lot easier than fixing a dished stone. I've learned that it's easier with Chosera stones, just run them over a flattening plate every use to bring up swarf and keep them flat. Since I don't have chosera right now, I might use the plate the same way on the shapton glass as I did with the chosera, maybe the edge pro aluminum oxide stones.

I could have sworn I heard somewhere the metallic cbn shouldn't be used on softer steels and DeadboxHero mentioned that 8Cr13MoV they didn't work well at all. I expected that and don't go softer than S30V. In fact, I'll probably continue to use edge pro stones or shapton glass for S30V/S35VN and softer. I'll keep the metallic cbn for M390 and higher. I like the results of the metallic cbn on M390 and S110 so far. I didn't find S110 any more difficult than M390 and I have yet to dress my stones out of the box.

Something else I've noticed comparing metallic cbn to diamond bonded stones, the bonded stones seem to use the water better, a slight absorption, they act a little more like a waterstone (they'll dish and wear like a waterstone). The metallic cbn acts like a plated diamond stone but it's still bonded, not really needing the water, the water runs off, they don't stay wet at all, no absorption that I've seen. They are suppose to be cleaner and I have to agree so far. I've used mineral oil with plated diamond but I think with the metallic cbn, I might go dry from now on. I've tried soap and water to clean them after use, I see no benefit from that so far.

Just my thoughts.
Very interesting, Im thinking I need to try them in an edge pro to see how these truly work. If you think about these stones for that application it's the ultimate stone. No dishing, no water, no tearout, no resetting angles to adjust for stone height.

When I used them freehand I needed water to move the cut metal off the stone and I needed to keep them dressed to maintain the feedback I like so I can feel we're I'm cutting on the bevel.
 
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Have used them for years. Metal bond and resin bond. They are pricey but on the other hand, they will literally last a lifetime (metal bond). When they will lose aggressiveness just etch it and it is good as new. I believe they put Atomas and DMTs to rest. Unbeatable price/quality ratio. If you have any question feel free to ask :). I have a few new full sets collecting dust. PM if anyone is interested.
 
Using water isn't about absorption. It's about keeping the stone cleaner and reducing friction to minimize wear on the abrasive.

The fun of texting and writing. I should have something to the extent of the "ability to use" water mostly as a lubricant.

My impression of water on metallic cbn was minimal if any. I didn't feel it helped keep the stones lubricated, might have helped a little removing shavings.

Moving up the chain of stones, plated diamonds did not absorb but you could tell the water was effectively used for lubrication and keeping the stones clean as you wipe away metal shavings.

Moving a little further up, bonded diamonds you can see the absorption of water, you can tell it's effectively being used as a lubricant and you can wipe the stone clean from metal shavings.

Moving further up, the chosera worked best when soaked for a couple minutes, kept wet for building up swarf which helped with cutting. I feel the same way about shapton glass and aluminum oxide stones although I don't soak these stones.
 
M-S-T who made the resin bond stones?

wade7575, if you try Sic powder on a flat surface to dress these stones you will find out it will take forever, and many recharges of Sic powder, to dress too much. The problem with over dressing is to do it too often. How to dress resin bond stones is something I have spent a fair amount of time studying, and loose abrasives on a flat surface is by far the best method I have tried. Of course no one loose abrasive or size is best, it depends on what you want to dress. Not sure Sic is needed for resin bond stones, I have some coarser Alox comming to try next.
 
M-S-T who made the resin bond stones?

wade7575, if you try Sic powder on a flat surface to dress these stones you will find out it will take forever, and many recharges of Sic powder, to dress too much. The problem with over dressing is to do it too often. How to dress resin bond stones is something I have spent a fair amount of time studying, and loose abrasives on a flat surface is by far the best method I have tried. Of course no one loose abrasive or size is best, it depends on what you want to dress. Not sure Sic is needed for resin bond stones, I have some coarser Alox comming to try next.

Same manufacturer. ''Poltava diamond tools''. In general, they are making:
CBN stones in the metallic bond in many sizes.
Diamond stones in metallic bond in many sizes.
CBN stones in a resin bond. Only in 150mm X 25mm X 3mm.

In reality, CBN resin layer is less than 3mm. More like 2.5mm. The resin itself is softer than venev and performs much better, but dishes somewhat faster. Easier to flatten. I rarely use waterstones these days. I truly believe that poltava production is absolutely the best on the market in its class. But a little bit pricey. I think they are going to rise the prices by 10-15% by the end of this month.
 
Same manufacturer. ''Poltava diamond tools''. In general, they are making:
CBN stones in the metallic bond in many sizes.
Diamond stones in metallic bond in many sizes.
CBN stones in a resin bond. Only in 150mm X 25mm X 3mm.

In reality, CBN resin layer is less than 3mm. More like 2.5mm. The resin itself is softer than venev and performs much better, but dishes somewhat faster. Easier to flatten. I rarely use waterstones these days. I truly believe that poltava production is absolutely the best on the market in its class. But a little bit pricey. I think they are going to rise the prices by 10-15% by the end of this month.

Interesting, so the resin is wearing from sharpening. I never thought I would go diamond on sharpening steel but I haven't used anything else for months now and doubt I will go back. Not having the stone swarf to clean up is nice with guided systems. No issues here with diamond on softer steels but I have changed the way I sharpen, mainly much less pressure and only edge trailing strokes on the finer grits.
 
1000 grit finish
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Better push cuts, can treetop if your consistent and cleanly remove burr without rounding and crushing edge.
 
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