Metallic or Resin bonded Diamond/CBN?

[Atama]

I need to get some new stones to work with "supersteels" that have made their way into my rotation. S90v, S110v, REX 45, and Maxamet are the steels these stones would primarily be used for. Those steels almost make diamonds or CBN a nessecity. Admittedly, I have no experience with a CBN stone of any kind, but do find them intriguing. I tend to prefer those shiny near mirrored edges. I am not really concerned with price differential between the media or bonding methods, so long as there is something to be gained in terms of edge quality or usable life the stone can provide. My question for those who have used resin and metallic bonded stones (diamond or CBN) is which would you choose and why?

 

[wade7575]

I can't tell you the difference between the Metallic CBN and Metallic diamond,I just started with the CBN and stuck with them and if I remember correctly I think the CBN have more facet's which makes them cut faster.

If you going to get the Metallic stones I find the best line up to have is the 120 240 400 1K 4K and 8K,I also really like the Venev 400 800 and 1200 in 100% concentration and they do a really good job of polishing the edge and not leaving as many scratch's as you would think they do.

The Venev stones as far as edge quality go's are the best stones I have ever used and I have tried a lot of stones over the years.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Metallic for speed and aggression, Resin for higher finish and finesse.

Neither does what the other will do.

Inverse relationship.

I need to get some new stones to work with "supersteels" that have made their way into my rotation. S90v, S110v, REX 45, and Maxamet are the steels these stones would primarily be used for. Those steels almost make diamonds or CBN a nessecity. Admittedly, I have no experience with a CBN stone of any kind, but do find them intriguing. I tend to prefer those shiny near mirrored edges. I am not really concerned with price differential between the media or bonding methods, so long as there is something to be gained in terms of edge quality or usable life the stone can provide. My question for those who have used resin and metallic bonded stones (diamond or CBN) is which would you choose and why?

 

[Atama]

Thanks for the replies! Why, in your experiences, would I want to go with diamonds over CBN, or vise versa? My understanding is that CBN really shines in powered applications where heat is a factor. Also, I think the crystalline structure of CBN has more facets at lower angles, meaning a less aggressive scratch pattern. Is that correct? I am thinking metallic stones in the courser grits, and switch to resin in the higher grits, 1k<.

 

[Diemaker]

You are right that CBN should have more facets making it slightly less aggressive, but it is also 64% of the hardness of diamond so it won't stay as sharp as long. The advantage to CBN is it is much easier to get metal to bond to it and it will work at higher temperatures. Keep in mind that diamond comes in a greater range of quality than CBN, you can get cheap that has shape consistency of beach sand and isn't as strong or tough or pay for the good stuff that has very consistent shapes and is much stronger, think Maxamet vs Dollar Store knives and that is not an exaggeration.

 

[wade7575]

A Atama I haven't any problem with the Poltava Metallic Bond CBN stones getting dull at all they beast's for sure,the Metallic CBN stones from 240 onward don't tear up the edge to much the 120 does a bit but nothing tear that the 240 and 400 won't clean up really fast.

 

[Atama]

wade7575 how often do you find that you need to "resurface" the metallic bonded stones? Every 10 sharpenings? 50? 100?? Do they tend to load as quickly as say the Venev diamonds (particularly at higher grits)?

A Atama I haven't any problem with the Poltava Metallic Bond CBN stones getting dull at all they beast's for sure,the Metallic CBN stones from 240 onward don't tear up the edge to much the 120 does a bit but nothing tear that the 240 and 400 won't clean up really fast.

 

[DeadboxHero]

wade7575 how often do you find that you need to "resurface" the metallic bonded stones? Every 10 sharpenings? 50? 100?? Do they tend to load as quickly as say the Venev diamonds (particularly at higher grits)?

They don't load at low grit. Surface as often as needed like when you need to put air in your car tires, as needed.

They don't need surfacing or conditioning as much as other stones in the low grit range.

 

[Atama]

Thanks BBB! What about the higher grits? From watching videos from yourself and others, it looks like these stones should last almost a lifetime for someone like me who doesn't sharpen near the volume pros like you and others do.

 

[DeadboxHero]

The higher grit metallic can load if used dry but will wash off. They don't finish as nicely as resin but the cut faster and won't need to be dressed as often.

Thanks BBB! What about the higher grits? From watching videos from yourself and others, it looks like these stones should last almost a lifetime for someone like me who doesn't sharpen near the volume pros like you and others do.

 

[wade7575]

wade7575 how often do you find that you need to "resurface" the metallic bonded stones? Every 10 sharpenings? 50? 100?? Do they tend to load as quickly as say the Venev diamonds (particularly at higher grits)?

I use Bar Keepers Friend in the gold canister to clean mine just to look after them,a knife maker on this forum told me back when I had a paid subscription and could get private message's told me that with lower grits he was getting 350 to 500 sharpening's before he needed to etch the stones.

He also said that if you sharpen stainless steels more he found they didn't last as long between etch's because the CBN or diamonds tend to hook into the steel,if you don't use a lot of pressure when sharpening with them they will last an extremely long time.

For the best result's get the 120 240 400 Metallic bond stones and then get the 400 800 and 1200 Venev stones in 100%,those are the stones I use the most.

 

[UncleBoots]

He also said that if you sharpen stainless steels more he found they didn't last as long between etch's because the CBN or diamonds tend to hook into the steel,if you don't use a lot of pressure when sharpening with them they will last an extremely long time.

For the best result's get the 120 240 400 Metallic bond stones and then get the 400 800 and 1200 Venev stones in 100%,those are the stones I use the most.

I love my Metallic Bonded CBNs for use on a guided sharpener. They seem perfect. I've tried hand-sharpening with them, and did not enjoy them nearly as much. For that, the full-sized Venev, which I got because you recommended Venev, are wonderful. Even the lowest grit (sold as 100, labeled as 160) is a pleasure, which is a great surprise to me, because really-low-grit stones are usually a slog for me when hand-sharpening, because of the "bouncing over the cobblestones" effect. Great stones, those Venevs. I might have to pick up a set for the Hapstone, too.

Say, you mention etching the metallic-bonded stones. I know that's my fate someday, but I haven't done it yet. How is it done? I remember reading here about some acid that should be used, but I don't remember which acid, and I don't remember even reading anything about the right technique/process. Any advice?

 

[wade7575]

U UncleBoots Go to youtube and look up a channel called Gunny’s Sharp talk and when your looking at his channel he has a video called Etching metallic bonded stones.

His stones are not mounted to blanks and if you have access to a miter saw you can make your own blanks out of carbon fiber and then gluing the blanks to that,I think JB Weld should stand up to Ferric Chloride which is what you use to etch the stones,as soon as it cool down where I'm at I'm going to see how JB Weld and Permatex Cold Weld stand up to Ferric Chloride.

If the glues stand up I'm going to unmount my stones and and glue them to carbon fiber blanks in the future,all you need is a miter saw and a chop saw blade for metal that's like a big grinding wheel and then just get some 3mm thick carbon fiber sheet from Ailexpress,you need to cut the sheet into 1 inch strips then cut them to length with 45 degree cut's at each end of the blank.

The reason for the carbon fiber blanks is because ferric chloride can't hurt carbon fiber where ferric chloride can hurt the aluminum blanks over time and it's going to eat away the thinnest part's first the most which will be the 45 degree cut's.

I'm thinking I may need to use a torch and heat the aluminum blank up to be able to get it off because they use a different glue in Russia and then I was thinking either using a coarse stone around 400 to 600 gri to scrub off the old glue a brass wire wheel on a drill so I can then glue them with JB Weld to the carbon fiber blanks.

For etching the stones just buy MG Chemical's Ferric Chloride.

 

[Atama]

A Atama I haven't any problem with the Poltava Metallic Bond CBN stones getting dull at all they beast's for sure,the Metallic CBN stones from 240 onward don't tear up the edge to much the 120 does a bit but nothing tear that the 240 and 400 won't clean up really fast.

I got the 240 grit metallic CBN stone, and I am pretty sure that the 120 is in my near future. Do you see a real need for the 80 grit metallic CBN stone? Or does the 120 do just fine in your experience?

 

[wade7575]

The 120 grit will do fine for most people no matter what steel you throw in front of it,the 80 chew's up the edge a bit more and just waste's steel,if you were going to get the 80 grit I would only get it if you have a lot of really thick knives and you chip them a lot,the 120 is a great stone and is about the lowest grit you really need.

If I were you I would get the 120 and after that pick up a 400 if you don't have one and also look at getting the 1K or 2K,I have the 80 120 240 400 1K 4K 8K 15K and 30K and I also just ordered the 2K and had it sent to a friend of mine in the states who's going to forward it to me to Canada along with some other stuff I ordered from a few other places so I can save on shipping.

My friend told me after he tried the 2K stone that he really liked the feel of the edge and mind you he has only cut paper with it so far,he just got it today and is going to try cutting food with it and also carrying it to work where he has to use a knife a lot,he sharpened a Spyderco Para 3 in M390 and a knife in D2.

I will also be doing a review on the 2K when I get it most likely,I wanted to see the difference between the 1K and 2K and see if the 2K would give a bit more more of a refined edge.

 

[Atama]

I have 240 through 1000 in metallic bonded cbn, above that I switch to a resin bond for the finishing properties (i like really shiny edges). I wasn't really sure about the 80, as I don't have many knives over .2 in thickness. Also, i tend to be very mindful of my edges even under hard use, and keep my edges well maintained.

 

[knivesgr]

A Atama I haven't any problem with the Poltava Metallic Bond CBN stones getting dull at all they beast's for sure,the Metallic CBN stones from 240 onward don't tear up the edge to much the 120 does a bit but nothing tear that the 240 and 400 won't clean up really fast.

This is an old post so hopefully I get a response.
How do you like the quality of the Poltava premiums Vs venev? I'm thinking of buying their premium CBN stones. Or should I just go with venev

 

[777 Edge]

This is an old post so hopefully I get a response.
How do you like the quality of the Poltava premiums Vs venev? I'm thinking of buying their premium CBN stones. Or should I just go with venev

I have a set of Venev MS-1 stones and I do like them a lot but I haven't used them extensively yet so I can't really give a full review of them at this point in time. That said, they are very promising from what I've seen thus far. I've used the Poltava metallic bonded stones more only because I've had my Poltava set longer than my Venev MS-1 set - the Poltava stones certainly are good stones.

Generally, metallic bonded stones will remove metal faster, but the resin based stones will leave a more refined edge. The resin based stones will also wear slightly more similar to Japanese water stones - where they will slowly expose fresh abrasives easier than the Metallic bonded stones (The resin does break down but definitely won't break down as fast as some soft bonded AlOx stones though).

 

[vlodko_lviv]

The resource of stones from Poltava is significantly higher than the resource of Venev stones.
Indeed, the edge after the stones on the organic link is more "smooth".
In order for the stones from Poltava to always work aggressively, it is necessary to remove the top layer of the bond from time to time. This is done by grinding the stone on silicon carbide powder. In order for this process to go quickly, literally in a few minutes, instead of water, you need to use a solution of iron chloride. After the surface of the stone has been renewed, you need to stop the etching process. To do this, the stones must be immersed in a solution of baking soda.

 

[Blade Lab]

If I had to choose between the two I would go with resin bonded. Yes, they don't cut quite as fast as metallic bonded, but they still cut plenty fast, in my opinion. They're easier to maintain and produce a better finish. And on the subjective side, I just prefer the feel of resin-bonded stones, which are closer to ceramics or alox stones than metallic bonded, which feel just like diamond plates.