Metallurgy translations: "timbre"?

D

deker

Joined
Nov 14, 2005
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So, I've been reading an older (pre WW2) edition of "Tool Steel Simplified" and we've obviously come a long way since then and vocabularies have changed a bit. While I think I understand from a perspective of physical properties what Mr. Palmer is talking about, I'm wondering what (if anything) in the modern metallurgical lexicon would equate to "timbre" in the older texts....

Thanks,

-d
 
What's the context? Resonance maybe? Like how bell metal vibrates in a quantitatively different way than gun metal, for instance?
 
The context has to do with completeness and depth of hardening in simple carbon steels, as well as comparitive brittleness after hardening, though they kind of speak of it as the "personality" of a given billet of steel. Things of the same chemical analysis can have varying "timbre" from melt to melt.

-d
 
That's before my time but I do have a 1935 F&W dictionary. There the word "timbre" refers only to musical tone. However "timber" has one interesting definition - ''loosely ,the materials for a structure, hence 'that boy has good timber in him' " From your context I would assume they mean mechanical properties and hardenability .Though that shouldn't vary if the chemistry was exactly the same.
 
I've got a 1903 "Imperial Dictionary of the English Language" and a rather non-descript definition that I overlooked the first time states, "the materials for any subject".
Politics offer good "timber" for debate.
So that timber of melt to melt would mean different "materials".
The timber of resonance ends with an "e" = timbere.
 
Timbre is an outdated metallurgy term coined by Carpenter and used in some of their old literature. It is defined in their book "Tool Steel Simplified."
 
:DAs soon as I saw the word "timbre", I knew somebody had read "Tool Steel Simplified" as it is the only work I have ever encountered the term in;) In the book they liken it to "personality":confused: Whereas other properties are seen to be determined exclusively by the chemistry, thus in the very nature of the steel like our behavior can be influenced by our DNA, timbre is the "nuture" or environment part of the equation that establishes personality.

For instance, I have a piece of 52100 for the other end of the same bar that another smith gets. I work it and heat it in rational caring ways resulting in a steel that behaves quite normal in the final heat treatment and life as a blade. However the other smith mistreats the same steel in all kinds of wacked out ways and repeatedly abuses it before the final heat treatment by which point it is quite disturbed and exhibiting all kinds of undesirable behavior. Both samples were born of the same furnace with the same chemistry, yet do to different subsequent treatment one has a different "timber" than the other and may end up doing hard time after years in the juvenile justice system. But the good news is that we can break this cycle of abuse through education:D.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
:DBoth samples were born of the same furnace with the same chemistry, yet do to different subsequent treatment one has a different "timber" than the other and may end up doing hard time after years in the juvenile justice system. But the good news is that we can break this cycle of abuse through education:D.
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ROTFL :D :D "Cashenalogy" !!! :D :D ........



;)
 
If I remember right, In Tool Steel Simplified for those of you that didn't read it. The author, a employ of Carpenter steel, uses timbre as a comparison in a break test done on all their steels in a hardened state. Their test was to heat a 3" piece of 3/4" round to 1550f and quenching in brine and then breaking to look at the grain and depth of hardening. He spoke of different timbre in different melts and I have to wonder if this was all due to less knowledge, ability to measure and control of the minor alloy ingredients in the steel. Like say manganese and vadnium. I am sure that as Kevin states what happens and how between the melt and the shaping of the piece of round stock before it was hardened would effect the "timbre"
 
That is the case, and in the book they do focus on what could have been done at the mill to affect the steel beyond its chemistry, such as heavy segregation in the ingot, different effects of deoxidation, pipe, scabs, blowholes etc... all leading to changes in impact toughness not attributable to chemistry alone.
 
The referance to Timbre could refer to the old test of a bar of steel by hitting it with a hammer on the end face and listening to the sound.

A solid bar with no faults will ring true while a bar with inclusions, delaminations and such will not ring as cleanly.

Just a guess of course.
 
Reminds me of a discussion I had about high end audio systems .They even use silver wire ! Someone then asked whats the difference between copper and silver wires . I said if it's copper it's pronounced timber and if it's silver it's pronounced timbre !!
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
For instance, I have a piece of 52100 for the other end of the same bar that another smith gets. I work it and heat it in rational caring ways resulting in a steel that behaves quite normal in the final heat treatment and life as a blade. However the other smith mistreats the same steel in all kinds of wacked out ways and repeatedly abuses it before the final heat treatment by which point it is quite disturbed and exhibiting all kinds of undesirable behavior. Both samples were born of the same furnace with the same chemistry, yet do to different subsequent treatment one has a different "timber" than the other and may end up doing hard time after years in the juvenile justice system. But the good news is that we can break this cycle of abuse through education:D.
Click to expand...

That's about what I thought until Mr. Palmer described that the timbre of a piece of steel could not be affected by heating and/or cooling....confused the heck out of me! From the pictures along with the conversation, it looked like grain growth issues and/or carbide formation issues, either of which can be affected by heat cycling right?

The thing about a "timbre test" as described in the book is that identical pieces are heated to 1550 and brine quenched. Certainly not a NICE thing to do so a simple carbon steel, and I could attribute some of the uglyness seen to the state of the grain prior to the heat to 1550 (ie. if the steel had been normalized or spheriodized prior to the test vs. not), but the part where he says you can't affect the timbre with thermal cycling baffles me.

I'm perfectly happy to chalk this up to "old, outdated terminology" that's no longer germaine in a modern metallurgical discussion, but seeing as I don't want to discount old information just because it's old, I have to try and understand it. I'll have to re-read the section on timbre and find some specific quotes that underscore my question....

-d
 
Deker,
I had a similar reaction when I first encountered this term.

Interestingly, the term timbre appears in the 4th edition of Tool Steel Simplified as well, which was published in 1978 which I would not consider archaic.

Palmer actually defines Timbre as "the property of tool steel which controls the grain size and hardness penetration developed by hardening." He attributed it to "melting techniques too complicated to enlarge upon in this book." Additionally, he indicated that minute amounts of oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, aluminum, calcium, magnesium, and other elements which cannot be analyzed by the usual chemical procedures could be combined with each other and with the steel's primary constituents at the time of the initial melt, developing the timber.

Given that Carpenter sponsored the book, perhaps they wanted a way to differentiate their products. Given that routine alloy analysis would not include many of these micro-alloying elements, it is interesting to note the importance of testing for timber to the extent that there were well defined procedures for measuring it. I was especially impressed that they would routinely slice off bar ends and etch them in hot acid to bring out the crystal structure and identify defects. They even marketed the billets as "Certified Disc-Inspected by acid etch and by hardening" with accompanying certificate of examination. As a QA guy, I appreciate people going the extra mile to test and certify their products.

I, of course, have much to learn in this wonderful craft of knifemaking. I very much appreciate what I have learned here from those who came before me to "pave the way".

-Doug
 
Wow, okay, let me try and get some perspective on this one...

Aside from having steel of known chemical composition, and knowing how to massage the properties we want out of it, now we're concerned about trace amounts of impurities and how they might effect the musical properties of the steel?!?!?

I'm cool with understanding for the sake of understanding, if that's all it is, but please, please, please, for the sake of all that is holy and good in the world, please tell me that this property / effect called timbre isn't going to become the new buzzword for super duper mega knives of doom!

Don't get me wrong, I think it's grand that at least some folks are interested in and seem to be at least trying to measure the effects of miniscule differences from one billet to another. I find it fascinating myself, and could likely get lost in the process of trying to wrap my likely insufficient brain around it.

But it also has the distinctly ominous feel of a new hocus pocus for selling knives that are more musically inclined than the competition!
 
deker said:
That's about what I thought until Mr. Palmer described that the timbre of a piece of steel could not be affected by heating and/or cooling....confused the heck out of me! From the pictures along with the conversation, it looked like grain growth issues and/or carbide formation issues, either of which can be affected by heat cycling right?

The thing about a "timbre test" as described in the book is that identical pieces are heated to 1550 and brine quenched. Certainly not a NICE thing to do so a simple carbon steel, and I could attribute some of the uglyness seen to the state of the grain prior to the heat to 1550 (ie. if the steel had been normalized or spheriodized prior to the test vs. not), but the part where he says you can't affect the timbre with thermal cycling baffles me.

I'm perfectly happy to chalk this up to "old, outdated terminology" that's no longer germaine in a modern metallurgical discussion, but seeing as I don't want to discount old information just because it's old, I have to try and understand it. I'll have to re-read the section on timbre and find some specific quotes that underscore my question....

-d
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Yes, I was having too much fun earlier, but as I pointed out in my second post things done to the soilidifying ingot at the mill would have a rather permenant effect. How the steel was deoxidized or killed, whether it was capped or cropped and how effective the subsequent soaking in the pit and rolling was in correctin some of these issues. Where I differ with the book is that they just call this different behavior in the steel, while I would say that if the properties are that altered from these issues, it is just a bad peice of steel that needs to be dumped back into the furnace. Also remember that any steel rolled from an ingot will have anisotropic properties which could be considered directional timbre.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Yes, I was having too much fun earlier, but as I pointed out in my second post things done to the soilidifying ingot at the mill would have a rather permenant effect. How the steel was deoxidized or killed, whether it was capped or cropped and how effective the subsequent soaking in the pit and rolling was in correctin some of these issues. Where I differ with the book is that they just call this different behavior in the steel, while I would say that if the properties are that altered from these issues, it is just a bad peice of steel that needs to be dumped back into the furnace. Also remember that any steel rolled from an ingot will have anisotropic properties which could be considered directional timbre.
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If I understood you at Blade correctly though these directional issues can be modified to some degree through heavy forging right?

Also, this brings to mind a bit of conversation I had with Mr. Pendray about wootz and dendrite direction after forging, but that's a topic for another thread ;)

-d
 
"any steel ...will have anisotropic properties" .Well Kevin since we've been speaking of Timken ,their A-10 ,rolled from ingot,has some neat properties ! There is no dimensional change from pre-HT to post-HT !! ..Your types of steel will have dimensional changes and those changes will be different in the three directions !!!
 
All blades used to be tuned at A440 on the tip and the remaining edge at A444. A440 being singular to the vertice of edges and A444 being the edge of lateral push/pull harmony:rolleyes:

There are those who have gone beyond the typical limitations of modified just intonation tuning to create blanks which resonate in an offset, more obsolete, timbre.;)

Spliny the Youngerest actually documented accounts of smiths who could reproduce blades with perpendicular timbres in several planes at once. These tremolo based edges have all been forgotten due to the self contained and conflicting nature of dominant tuning structures.:D

Due to recent terrorism prevention laws, A majority, if not all, of the metals used in smithing have been tuned down to a composite A442 to reduce/eliminate further "edge based" crimes. The A442 tuning is said to decrease aggressive tendancies in unstable individuals by quelling the beastly A440 Western tuning with a touch of Eastern A444.:foot:

Those bushcraft scimitars will never be the same!
 
Timbre, as used in the book, had nothing to do with music or sound. It was used as a term to describe differences in the way steel reacted to heat treat. As was said before, two bars w/ the same analysis could have significant differences in the way they reacted to HT. You could replace the word with "preference toward" as in "preference toward toughness" or "preference toward brittleness".

The question I had regarding the term is whether this negative "preference toward brittleness" could be changed with a different HT sequence. While the analysis was the same, obviously there was a problem. While one could trash the steel, could there have been a different process that would have at least minimized the problem?
 
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