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Micro bevels as a method to deburr.
- Thread starter Whisper21
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I'd like to scold you, but it does work. 
But really, you should only be establishing a microbevel if that's what you were aiming for from the beginning. If you are aiming for a true V, then get the stonework down.
But really, you should only be establishing a microbevel if that's what you were aiming for from the beginning. If you are aiming for a true V, then get the stonework down.
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For all intents and purposes, anytime one raises the angle slightly and strokes edge-leading into the hone to fold & scrub off a burr, microbevelling is exactly what you're doing, whether intentional or not. It's going to happen to greater or lesser degree anyway, with even a single, slightly off-angle freehand stroke. No freehand technique will be so perfect as to prevent it completely. The only difference is how big/small the 'micro' bevel will be, after the fact.
David
David
I'd echo Mag: The real reason to add a micro-bevel is because you want a micro-bevel, either to strengthen an acute, high-performance edge or to make resharpening easier.
And you can still easily create a burr with a micro-bevel. Technique matters on burr removal, whether you're doing a pure V edge or a micro-beveled V edge.
And you can still easily create a burr with a micro-bevel. Technique matters on burr removal, whether you're doing a pure V edge or a micro-beveled V edge.
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That is not entirely correct. It is true that you cannot avoid putting a small degree of convex on an edge, but a micro bevel is something very different. If you are trying for a V and unintentionally putting a micro-bevel on, then your angle work needs improvement. While freehanding, you could just as easily unintentionally undershoot your apex as you can overshoot it for the last passes, right? The result will be a little bit of convexing toward the shoulder, not a micro-bevel.
Even if you do ever-so-slightly raise your angle for the last pass, that does not make a true micro-bevel.
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ONE pass at an elevated angle won't convex an edge, but it will do exactly the same thing as making a 'true' microbevel (which is nothing more than semantics, and sometimes pretentious at that). The edge of the blade doesn't see the difference, nor does it care. Individuals honing their own blades can get more specific and creative about the size or degree of finish of it, but a microbevel is still just a microbevel, which is just a very narrow and slightly more obtuse set of bevels on the existing cutting edge. It can happen accidentally, or intentionally. But it doesn't change what it is.
David
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Don't think anyone else uses that def of a micro-bevel. A micro-bevel is a deliberate technique for a specific purpose. If it's done accidentally, then the technique needs improvement. And you can easily make a V edge without one, provided you have the skill.
I agree that you're being too rigid to semantics. What OWE is describing is an effect, what you're describing is a technique, or better put a desired outcome which requires specific use of said technique. Because the mechnical operation of both of these concepts is the same, so in essence they operate on the same principles.
But OWE is right, he's simply pointing out that this happens on a scale that is so small that one cannot actually view it unless you have a SEM with extremely high magnification. A micro-bevel that is meant to lend strength to a more acute edge behind it needs to be formed at an angle and bevel width that is significant enough to actually lend material fortification to the edge. As OWE is describing it, raising the angle to deburr a V edge, the optimal increase would be less than one degree and the optimal bevel width so small that you'd require intense magnification to view. With micro-bevels as you're describing them, most people can see them with their naked eye under good lighting; maybe light magnficiation if their eyes are bad.
So if one deburrs a V edge with the same process/technique one would use to create a micro-bevel, the V edge produced will still be practically indiscernable from a V edge that was deburred while the user was trying to maintain the edge precisely. Unless you use a mechnical jig you will not take this minutia out of the equation. I think calling these effects "bevels" is a little off-center, they are more like "facets". Every time the angle changes one little bit while grinding, you create a new facet that's much too small to form what could really be called a bevel, but is a change in the angle nontheless. This is the dynamic that leads to free-hand edges always being convex to some small degree. It is unavoidable regardless of skill, what takes more skill is to take advantage of it to deburr quickly and have an edge that is practically the same as any produced on a guided system that has a truly flat plane for the bevel face.
But OWE is right, he's simply pointing out that this happens on a scale that is so small that one cannot actually view it unless you have a SEM with extremely high magnification. A micro-bevel that is meant to lend strength to a more acute edge behind it needs to be formed at an angle and bevel width that is significant enough to actually lend material fortification to the edge. As OWE is describing it, raising the angle to deburr a V edge, the optimal increase would be less than one degree and the optimal bevel width so small that you'd require intense magnification to view. With micro-bevels as you're describing them, most people can see them with their naked eye under good lighting; maybe light magnficiation if their eyes are bad.
So if one deburrs a V edge with the same process/technique one would use to create a micro-bevel, the V edge produced will still be practically indiscernable from a V edge that was deburred while the user was trying to maintain the edge precisely. Unless you use a mechnical jig you will not take this minutia out of the equation. I think calling these effects "bevels" is a little off-center, they are more like "facets". Every time the angle changes one little bit while grinding, you create a new facet that's much too small to form what could really be called a bevel, but is a change in the angle nontheless. This is the dynamic that leads to free-hand edges always being convex to some small degree. It is unavoidable regardless of skill, what takes more skill is to take advantage of it to deburr quickly and have an edge that is practically the same as any produced on a guided system that has a truly flat plane for the bevel face.
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It takes more skill to use a micro-bevel to deburr quickly? As opposed to using stone work to deburr, following your V? You could have fooled me. I though the latter required an order of magnitude more skill. I learn something new here every day.
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Most manufacturers use a belt to sharpen a rough bevel and finish with a paper wheel, powered leather wheel or belt at a slightly larger angle. IMHO this is done to save time and reduce the number of steps taken.
I use it when sharpening with a coarse stone as its very difficult (again, IMHO) to cleanly remove a burr when using rough stones without using some form of microbevel.
Normally I avoid using them. I haven't found in my own usage that they increase wear characteristics and they complicate/limit how they can be maintained. Also no guarantee that microbevel will remove the burr entirely or not make a fresh one. Then what? continue to elevate the spine, regrind the back-bevel and re-try.
Maintaining the micro-bevel would lead to the creation of a fresh burr. The method I am speaking of requires that one sharpens along the back-bevel, lightly micro-bevels to remove the burr and then lightly finish along the back-bevel to establish a deburred edge that is more or less at the acute back-bevel angle. It is best to use this method on the finest stone. Technically, a micro-bevel is there, but it is functionally at back-bevel angle. I have done cut tests and this method produces a very deburred edge compared to not doing it.
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This is how I work when using a coarse stone for a hard working edge or some other task that requires a heavy draw cut. Normally I just remove it at the same bevel angle using very light pressure. The burr can be made to stand extra proud by lightly backdragging the edge at a wide angle across the corner of my stone base or workbench, cutting board etc, if necessary. Makes it easier to remove at the original angle. Final deburr, if still needed, can be done by stropping on paper - this will also reveal any remaining burrs that were too large to be removed with just the paper.
The method you describe works fine too, many ways to skin this cat.
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All you have to look at, is the definition of 'micro' ('extremely small'; straight from the dictionary) and 'bevel' ('the inclination that one line or surface makes with another when not at right angles'; again, straight from the dictionary). Literally, 'extremely small bevel'. Based on that actual published definition, it could be argued that a much smaller, single-pass bevel created at slightly wider angle is precisely the 'true' microbevel. Any creative interpretation beyond that, as to what it really IS (based on intent), is purely subjective and has little or nothing to do with universally-accepted truth. Again, it's all about semantics, when it gets over-analyzed to such degree. There's no magic or mystery or elusive technique here; it's about as simple a concept as it can be. It only appears as 'precise' or more technically challenging when it gets blown far out of perspective by those claiming to be 'experts' at it.
David
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EDIT: This debate is pointless. But if you ever decide to post a vid and demonstrate/explain any of the things you are writing about (and you write quite a bit), I'll watch it.
Back to the OP's thread: 1) sure, but not for every edge, 2) yes, if done correctly
Back to the OP's thread: 1) sure, but not for every edge, 2) yes, if done correctly
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Jason B.
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Manufactures don't microbevel, some may get a microbevle by accident but its not intentional.
You cannot deburr anymore with a microbevel than you can at the regular sharpened angle. There is no difference in what happens.
in japan this is not the case at all... a large number of them do... and in fact, many will recommend this as something one might want to do in sharpening. Using it to deburr is mostly just lazy, but putting on a microbevel will in some way deburr the knife (though if not done well, can lead to a worse burr).
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Hey guys,
I think here i agree with David, when you deburr on a stone by slightly raising the angle, it seems almost imposible for human biomechanics to file down only the burr. so, you're applying a very subtle microbevel to the edge. What I do after get rid of the burr is trying to work the back bevel (the angle I've been sharpening at) with feather touch on the stone to achieve that perfect V. Even so, I think that a very tiny microbevel remains.
But in the end, Mag is saying the same thing, because deburring by stone work is filing down the burr with very light pressure and we are not able to maintain the perfect angle, so my view is that the same process happens.
It's very complicated to know what it is actually happening at so microscopic level
Nice debate
I think here i agree with David, when you deburr on a stone by slightly raising the angle, it seems almost imposible for human biomechanics to file down only the burr. so, you're applying a very subtle microbevel to the edge. What I do after get rid of the burr is trying to work the back bevel (the angle I've been sharpening at) with feather touch on the stone to achieve that perfect V. Even so, I think that a very tiny microbevel remains.
But in the end, Mag is saying the same thing, because deburring by stone work is filing down the burr with very light pressure and we are not able to maintain the perfect angle, so my view is that the same process happens.
It's very complicated to know what it is actually happening at so microscopic level
Nice debate
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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JKI I presume?
I respect you opinion but disagree only because I have viewed what happens under a microscope. A burr being highly related to pressure can be reduced in size by using a microbevel but in some form is still present unless slowly polished off by light pressure. The microbevel greatly reduces its size but does not rid the edge of the debris we refer to as "the burr".