Micro bevels as a method to deburr.

i think we're saying the same thing with regard to the use of microbevels and deburring. I was first stating that many makers in japan do use them, and also will recommend them in many cases (but not all... maybe not even most depending on the region). However, for using a microbevel technique to deburr, i was saying that its not a good way of doing this. It can be done, but requires followup stropping and whatnot to get rid of the remaining bits.

Likewise, microscopes have been of great help ;)

I guess after re-reading my post, i didnt clarify at all. In what i said, i meant to say that microbevels can reduce the size of a burr, but its nowhere near the best way of doing this. And doing this well through microbevels takes skill, so its not just a natural result of putting a microbevel on an edge.
 
knifenut1013 said:
JKI I presume?

I respect you opinion but disagree only because I have viewed what happens under a microscope. A burr being highly related to pressure can be reduced in size by using a microbevel but in some form is still present unless slowly polished off by light pressure. The microbevel greatly reduces its size but does not rid the edge of the debris we refer to as "the burr".
Click to expand...

Light pressure and technique on a stone could only abrade off most of the burr, but it doesn't completely remove the burr. Patiently abrading takes a lot of work and technique, but you're still left with a tiny burr at the regular acute angle. The steel type also varies your results. The micro bevel does all this almost instantly with the price of a more obtuse angle and it would be more predictable across varied steel types.
 
All due respect, but it is entirely possible to remove the burr at the base angle using light pressure. What's left will certainly be no larger than anything left behind by microbeveling, and in my opinion much more reliably eradicated (microscopes a big help in coming to this conclusion).

Keep in mind the surface area when microbeveling is exponentially smaller than what you have even with a very small bevel area on a flat grind or convex. Reliable control of pressure and angle has to be accomplished with no real comparative feedback, even with the very first pass. You take a known (and felt) value and increase the angle by X amount. After that your angle could be anything between the original angle and your first microbevel pass, the feedback will be no different until a new clean bevel angle is established, which would defeat the purpose. In the meantime, every pass may or may not be on the curve between eliminating the burr and creating a new one.

These comments do not readily apply to guided system obviously, but pretty sure we're talking about freehand sharpening on a hard stone here. IMHO there is no free lunch when it comes to bur removal, the ability to reliably remove the burr depends on using an amount of pressure (and appropriate abrasive) sufficient to continue abrading/removing steel, but less than the amount needed to flip the burr. This can certainly be done at the original angle. One also needs to know when to stop working, or a new (but smaller) burr will form opposite.

There are other more expedient means, but IMHO not on a hard stone.
 
HeavyHanded said:
All due respect, but it is entirely possible to remove the burr at the base angle using light pressure. What's left will certainly be no larger than anything left behind by microbeveling, and in my opinion much more reliably eradicated (microscopes a big help in coming to this conclusion).

Keep in mind the surface area when microbeveling is exponentially smaller than what you have even with a very small bevel area on a flat grind or convex. Reliable control of pressure and angle has to be accomplished with no real comparative feedback, even with the very first pass. You take a known (and felt) value and increase the angle by X amount. After that your angle could be anything between the original angle and your first microbevel pass, the feedback will be no different until a new clean bevel angle is established, which would defeat the purpose. In the meantime, every pass may or may not be on the curve between eliminating the burr and creating a new one.

These comments do not readily apply to guided system obviously, but pretty sure we're talking about freehand sharpening on a hard stone here. IMHO there is no free lunch when it comes to bur removal, the ability to reliably remove the burr depends on using an amount of pressure (and appropriate abrasive) sufficient to continue abrading/removing steel, but less than the amount needed to flip the burr. This can certainly be done at the original angle. One also needs to know when to stop working, or a new (but smaller) burr will form opposite.

There are other more expedient means, but IMHO not on a hard stone.
Click to expand...

^^That. Finding a good combination of pressure, stropping substrate and compound can do wonders. Sometimes I have used an edge-leading stroke on a stone to abrade, flip or otherwise break off some really BIG burrs, while fully expecting that not all of it will be removed. Then, the finer work of cleaning up the remnants is more effectively done via stropping. I've never looked back.


David
 
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JBroida said:
i think we're saying the same thing with regard to the use of microbevels and deburring. I was first stating that many makers in japan do use them, and also will recommend them in many cases (but not all... maybe not even most depending on the region). However, for using a microbevel technique to deburr, i was saying that its not a good way of doing this. It can be done, but requires followup stropping and whatnot to get rid of the remaining bits.

Likewise, microscopes have been of great help ;)

I guess after re-reading my post, i didnt clarify at all. In what i said, i meant to say that microbevels can reduce the size of a burr, but its nowhere near the best way of doing this. And doing this well through microbevels takes skill, so its not just a natural result of putting a microbevel on an edge.
Click to expand...

Were on the same page :)

I've noticed lots of microbevels on traditional cutlery, mainly yanagi's. I've also found if I don't use one when sharpening these blades the edge really doesn't last.
 
Whisper21 said:
Light pressure and technique on a stone could only abrade off most of the burr, but it doesn't completely remove the burr. Patiently abrading takes a lot of work and technique, but you're still left with a tiny burr at the regular acute angle. The steel type also varies your results. The micro bevel does all this almost instantly with the price of a more obtuse angle and it would be more predictable across varied steel types.
Click to expand...

Here are some pictures of un-stropped edges.

(This will probably be in mobile version so if anyone would like to convert them for me I would be grateful)

This first photo is ZDP-189 finished on a DMT EEF 8000 mesh diamond stone.
http://m284.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/knifenut1013/macro pics/PIC098.jpg.html?o=3

This next photo is a Richmond addict CPM-154 finished on a 6k Arashiyama waterstone.
http://m284.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/knifenut1013/macro pics/PIC044.jpg.html?o=52

And lastly, this is a edge with a burr.
http://m284.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/knifenut1013/macro pics/PIC086.jpg.html?o=10
 
knifenut1013 said:
Were on the same page :)

I've noticed lots of microbevels on traditional cutlery, mainly yanagi's. I've also found if I don't use one when sharpening these blades the edge really doesn't last.
Click to expand...

yeah... microbevels are very common on single bevel knives. But also common on super thin knives, super hard knives, most things in blue #1 or blue super, zdp, etc. (in japan)
 
(Jason, I copied & pasted the IMG urls from your links; they should display in your quoted post here):


David

knifenut1013 said:
Here are some pictures of un-stropped edges.

(This will probably be in mobile version so if anyone would like to convert them for me I would be grateful)

This first photo is ZDP-189 finished on a DMT EEF 8000 mesh diamond stone.
http://m284.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/knifenut1013/macro pics/PIC098.jpg.html?o=3
PIC098.jpg

This next photo is a Richmond addict CPM-154 finished on a 6k Arashiyama waterstone.
http://m284.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/knifenut1013/macro pics/PIC044.jpg.html?o=52
PIC044.jpg

And lastly, this is a edge with a burr.
http://m284.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/knifenut1013/macro pics/PIC086.jpg.html?o=10
PIC086.jpg
Click to expand...
 
DSC01987_zps9b5da443.jpg


The problem with this discussion is that we talk as though we’re flipping the burr back and forth. Actually, we’re cutting off the old burr while creating a new burr on the other side (right side diagram). It seems as though the burr is being flipped, but it’s actually a new burr. And it’s a new burr whether we increase the angle (to create a microbevel) or keep the sharpening angle the same.

Anytime a stone is scraped across the apex of a steel edge, a burr will form on the opposite side of the edge (left side diagram). The size of the burr depends on the coarseness of the stone and the pressure we put on that stone (and the type and hardness of the steel).

A microbevel creates its own new burr. The way to remove the burr is to decrease pressure on the stone and progress to finer and finer grits. A final stropping with 0.5 micron paste will remove any meaningful portion of the burr that is left .
 
It's sometimes amazing how tough & tenacious a folded burr can be. Sometimes they just won't be 'flipped' anyway. I ran across this today, with what appeared to be similar to a burr on the very tip of the clip blade on a Schrade folder (1095). I think this folded steel at the edge may've been the result of a bump or other impact, but it was identical to some burrs I've seen on other blades before. Just enough to authoritatively grab my thumbnail when I slid it toward the tip of the blade. Very stiff and unyielding.

What really amazed me was, I picked up a piece of smoothly saw-cut flint stone I'd found at a rock/lapidary shop some time back (very similar to a translucent Arkansas), and attempted to 'flip' the rolled steel to break it off. Used several edge-trailing strokes on the side to which the steel was folded. Didn't budge at all. So, in the same vein as what I'd mentioned earlier about finding the right abrasive, backing and pressure to abrade burrs away, I picked up a piece of 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and folded it over a balsa block I'd been using for stropping (SiC compound on the other side of it). The block is about 5.5" long, and thick enough to hold in one hand while honing the blade with the other. I made ONE edge-trailing pass along the short length of that sandpaper, using my index fingertip to lightly keep the forward end of the blade in light contact. Just like that, the folded steel at the edge was gone. Then flipped the block over and stropped a little bit on the SiC compound, then followed with a handful of passes on my leather belt with green compound. In the 2-3 minutes it took to do all that, the edge was restored as if no damage had occurred in the first place. This is why I so greatly value lightly abrading burrs away from an edge, instead of trying to break them by 'flipping' on a stone. Sometimes it just won't work as well and, as mentioned, oftentimes creates additional issues.


David
 
I really should get a microscope and see what my freehanding is actually doing to the edge. Maybe someday...

Some of you have said the burr is primarily removed by going to higher grits.
How does someone like me, who sharpens with a 325grit DMT and directly proceeds to a leather strop, remove the burr since my current micro-beveling method is not ideal?
 
I always thought that was how you were supposed to get rid of the burr,either by lightly honing or stropping. Can't see it makes much difference.
 
Nullity said:
I really should get a microscope and see what my freehanding is actually doing to the edge. Maybe someday...

Some of you have said the burr is primarily removed by going to higher grits.
How does someone like me, who sharpens with a 325grit DMT and directly proceeds to a leather strop, remove the burr since my current micro-beveling method is not ideal?
Click to expand...

Intermediate stropping on some medium/high grit sandpaper (anything from 320 and up) is perfect for this. Progressively lighter pressure as you go up in grit. About as inexpensive as can be, also. After that, use a compounded strop, then bare stropping to clean it all up.

You can also 'strop' on higher grit hones, if/when you acquire some more. Depending on steel (if extremely wear-resistant like S30V, etc.), diamond may help with that. For most common cutlery steels however, the sandpaper can fill that gap easily. In fact, with softer/simpler steels, the sandpaper could actually work better than the diamond, which sometimes can be too aggressive and leave a rougher mess on an edge.

And, as is always good sharpening technique, just focus on lightening pressure in the last few strokes on the 325-grit diamond hone, so whatever burr remains is minimal anyway. This is much more important if you're wanting to retain the edge finish and coarseness left by the 325-grit diamond, without further refining it (as would happen with sandpaper stropping). In that case, it's critical to fine-tune as much as you can on the hone, so the bare leather strop can effectively clean up whatever's left.


David
 
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twindog said:
dsc01987_zps9b5da443.jpg


the problem with this discussion is that we talk as though we’re flipping the burr back and forth. Actually, we’re cutting off the old burr while creating a new burr on the other side (right side diagram). It seems as though the burr is being flipped, but it’s actually a new burr. And it’s a new burr whether we increase the angle (to create a microbevel) or keep the sharpening angle the same.

Anytime a stone is scraped across the apex of a steel edge, a burr will form on the opposite side of the edge (left side diagram). The size of the burr depends on the coarseness of the stone and the pressure we put on that stone (and the type and hardness of the steel).

A microbevel creates its own new burr. The way to remove the burr is to decrease pressure on the stone and progress to finer and finer grits. A final stropping with 0.5 micron paste will remove any meaningful portion of the burr that is left .
Click to expand...

mho
burr.jpg
 
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