Microbevels

Great discussion. I find I get the sharpest edge on high carbon blades (1070, 1095, 50100, 52100) using a Black Arkansas bench stone about 12" long, then stropping with green chromium oxide. Not sure if that constitutes a micro-bevel, but it works.
 
If your stropping angle is shallower than your sharpening angle, it could constitute a micro bevel by definition.
 
So I recently had this thought tonight. I’ve been contemplating on experimenting with a micro bevel on my EDC. However I was wondering if there was a possibility that a micro bevel would have a preference on one type of edge over another? For instance, would a toothy edge benefit more than a polished edge; Assuming of course they both had the same micro bevel angles?

Im curious to start experimenting but I wanted to see if anyone else would know more than me at the moment.
 
Old Lincoln Pipe Welder said:
So I recently had this thought tonight. I’ve been contemplating on experimenting with a micro bevel on my EDC. However I was wondering if there was a possibility that a micro bevel would have a preference on one type of edge over another? For instance, would a toothy edge benefit more than a polished edge; Assuming of course they both had the same micro bevel angles?

Im curious to start experimenting but I wanted to see if anyone else would know more than me at the moment.
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It seems to me that most people like to have a mirror polish on their edges and then put a toothy microbevel on the apex.
 
Old Lincoln Pipe Welder said:
So I recently had this thought tonight. I’ve been contemplating on experimenting with a micro bevel on my EDC. However I was wondering if there was a possibility that a micro bevel would have a preference on one type of edge over another? For instance, would a toothy edge benefit more than a polished edge; Assuming of course they both had the same micro bevel angles?

Im curious to start experimenting but I wanted to see if anyone else would know more than me at the moment.
Click to expand...


In my use and experiment the best option comes from some form of coarse edge overlayed with the finest abrasive you have - or at least one that is MUCH finer than the one used to create the initial cutting edge.

This allows you to do two things, one is the initial edge can be very coarse for rapid edge reset. It also sets the baseline for any along-edge irregularities you might want to help with draw cutting.

Moving to a much finer abrasive at a higher angle has the effect of laying in a less acute but thinner edge across the apex with fewer irregularities - it is more durable. How many passes you make with the finer abrasive allows you to customize the amount of tooth etc without needing that "just right" stone grade.

There are some limits to this if there is a particular edge finish you have in mind it might make sense to use a progression to reduce any irregularities, say for a woodworking tool. For a kitchen or pocket utility edge normally only two grits are needed and you end up with a great all-around finish. It also requires very little tinkering with the specific plates, stones etc that you might be using eg going from XC DMT to an EF you can get a very predictable repeatable edge.

The downside to this is it takes some practice freehanding a shift of only a few degrees per side, but not too tough. On a guided system it couldn't be easier.
 
HeavyHanded said:
In my use and experiment the best option comes from some form of coarse edge overlayed with the finest abrasive you have - or at least one that is MUCH finer than the one used to create the initial cutting edge.

This allows you to do two things, one is the initial edge can be very coarse for rapid edge reset. It also sets the baseline for any along-edge irregularities you might want to help with draw cutting.

Moving to a much finer abrasive at a higher angle has the effect of laying in a less acute but thinner edge across the apex with fewer irregularities - it is more durable. How many passes you make with the finer abrasive allows you to customize the amount of tooth etc without needing that "just right" stone grade.

There are some limits to this if there is a particular edge finish you have in mind it might make sense to use a progression to reduce any irregularities, say for a woodworking tool. For a kitchen or pocket utility edge normally only two grits are needed and you end up with a great all-around finish. It also requires very little tinkering with the specific plates, stones etc that you might be using eg going from XC DMT to an EF you can get a very predictable repeatable edge.

The downside to this is it takes some practice freehanding a shift of only a few degrees per side, but not too tough. On a guided system it couldn't be easier.
Click to expand...
Thanks HH! I’ll have to wait till my edge finally gives out, then I’ll put it on my edc. A 30° Primary with a 40° micro has worked really well on my wife’s kitchen knife that I mainly use. It’s definitely stronger and I can’t wait to see what it does to 20CV instead of ol 440A steel next time. On another topic: I also found out that her cutting boards weren’t helping me at all either but I don’t want to get in trouble for going off topic 😉
 
HeavyHanded said:
In my use and experiment the best option comes from some form of coarse edge overlayed with the finest abrasive you have - or at least one that is MUCH finer than the one used to create the initial cutting edge.

This allows you to do two things, one is the initial edge can be very coarse for rapid edge reset. It also sets the baseline for any along-edge irregularities you might want to help with draw cutting.

Moving to a much finer abrasive at a higher angle has the effect of laying in a less acute but thinner edge across the apex with fewer irregularities - it is more durable. How many passes you make with the finer abrasive allows you to customize the amount of tooth etc without needing that "just right" stone grade.

There are some limits to this if there is a particular edge finish you have in mind it might make sense to use a progression to reduce any irregularities, say for a woodworking tool. For a kitchen or pocket utility edge normally only two grits are needed and you end up with a great all-around finish. It also requires very little tinkering with the specific plates, stones etc that you might be using eg going from XC DMT to an EF you can get a very predictable repeatable edge.

The downside to this is it takes some practice freehanding a shift of only a few degrees per side, but not too tough. On a guided system it couldn't be easier.
Click to expand...
I've tinkered with it a bit lately, after reading the above, and found that^ to be a very good strategy.

I used the XC DMT to set a fairly acute (sub-30° inclusive) edge on a Lightweight Buck 110LT in 420HC, then followed with a microbevel done in just a few extremely light passes on a Spyderco Fine ceramic (using the 30° setting on the Sharpmaker). The intended goal and result being, the 'microbevel' is so 'micro', it's not even seen by the eye, but it's effects on cutting become very obvious, very quickly. The microbevel's finish, left from the fine ceramic, is just enough to thin the apex AND clean up any coarse burrs or irregularities left by the XC diamond, leaving the edge hair-popping, as I'd expect from the fine ceramic, but still retaining some vicious, sticky bite, as I'd hope to see from the XC diamond. And using a pseudo-guided setup like the Sharpmaker, for the microbevel, makes maintaining the angle less daunting than if done while still trying to learn a freehand touch. All in all, it's a great strategy toward a wickedly aggressive edge, AND it's very simple to do.

Since I'd bought that Buck, I'd been looking for a favorite means to apply an aggressively toothy edge on that thinly-ground blade, which Buck does well. It just seemed like this particular knife really wanted for such an aggressive slicing edge. And so far, that XC diamond + fine ceramic combo is impressing me. :thumbsup:
 
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Would you say Micro bevels help the arm hair pop easier because of the geometry? I’ve seen people Sharpen on 220 grit stones, strop, and have hair popping edges.

I’ve recently put a 30-40° on my main kitchen knife and I’m impressed. It doesn’t dig in as good as the 30° original bevel, but once it makes it’s way through it requires zero effort. I think it’s safe to say I’m now a believer in the microbevels!
 
Old Lincoln Pipe Welder said:
Would you say Micro bevels help the arm hair pop easier because of the geometry? I’ve seen people Sharpen on 220 grit stones, strop, and have hair popping edges.

I’ve recently put a 30-40° on my main kitchen knife and I’m impressed. It doesn’t dig in as good as the 30° original bevel, but once it makes it’s way through it requires zero effort. I think it’s safe to say I’m now a believer in the microbevels!
Click to expand...
I think the microbevel helps ensure the edge is fully apexed, if nothing else, which ensures it's as thin across the apex as it can be. And more importantly, I believe it also adds stability, in the sense that without it, a very fine, shaving edge might otherwise be prone to folding over or moving back/forth, which makes shaving or 'hair-popping' sharpness somewhat erratic or hit/miss. Part of that added stability comes from cleaning up the weaker bits of burrs that might otherwise cling to an edge and get in the way of fine cutting.

The difference I primarily notice, in adding a micro, is greater consistency in clean, effortless cutting through fine paper, for example. Sometimes, without a microbevel, I'll notice a thin edge is kind of hit-or-miss in such cutting through paper, with it sailing through the paper on one pass, and then snagging or slipping on the next, then back to clean cutting on the next, etc. That's the 'instability' of a very fine edge moving or bending with each cut. Adding the micro cleans the edge of the weaker remnants and also strengthens the geometry at the apex, so it won't be as unstable.
 
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Old Lincoln Pipe Welder said:
Would you say Micro bevels help the arm hair pop easier because of the geometry? I’ve seen people Sharpen on 220 grit stones, strop, and have hair popping edges.

I’ve recently put a 30-40° on my main kitchen knife and I’m impressed. It doesn’t dig in as good as the 30° original bevel, but once it makes it’s way through it requires zero effort. I think it’s safe to say I’m now a believer in the microbevels!
Click to expand...


Personally my guide to microbevels involves using a 24-28° initial edge and a micro that is at most 2-4° per side. This cleans up the outside margins of the initial edge and as I like to point out - the apex gets thinner across but a little less acute. As a real-world utility approach example I might use Atoma 400 with a 1200 micro. For kitchen knives I might use a 600 with a 6-8k watersone.

My goal is to simply to retain a bunch of the along edge variation so it draw cuts well, while thinning the edge so it penetrates better with a pressure cut - the best of both worlds and very durable. Possibly the best reason to use it is for speed and convenience. Since it doesn't depend on a single grit for edge finish quality, almost anything in a "coarse" range works for the initial, and almost anything in the "extra fine" range works for the finish.
 
Old Lincoln Pipe Welder said:
Every time I see your two names catch my eye when I’m on here I always make sure I read your input. Thanks for the tips y’all!
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Me too. I was always under the belief that microbevels were mainly for people that wanted a mirror polished edge and a toothy cutting edge. So, you polish your edges up real good, and then put a nice cutting toothy microbevel on the edge.
The other day I did a quick sharpening job on my new Carothers DEK1 in D3V. Since the edges were a perfect 20dps, I started with my Wicked Edge 800 grit stones and went through to my 3000 grit diamond stones. The edges are shiny but I wouldn't call them mirror polished.
But the edges push cut nice. I was push cutting receipts and paper towels. But it didn't want to start cutting my 2" HD Poly strap very easily, but cut good after it started cutting. A good toothy microbevel would have helped starting the cut on the Poly strap.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Personally my guide to microbevels involves using a 24-28° initial edge and a micro that is at most 2-4° per side. This cleans up the outside margins of the initial edge and as I like to point out - the apex gets thinner across but a little less acute. As a real-world utility approach example I might use Atoma 400 with a 1200 micro. For kitchen knives I might use a 600 with a 6-8k watersone.

My goal is to simply to retain a bunch of the along edge variation so it draw cuts well, while thinning the edge so it penetrates better with a pressure cut - the best of both worlds and very durable. Possibly the best reason to use it is for speed and convenience. Since it doesn't depend on a single grit for edge finish quality, almost anything in a "coarse" range works for the initial, and almost anything in the "extra fine" range works for the finish.
Click to expand...
So I just put a micro on my Bugout in 20CV. I used my Atoma plates and I went from the 600 grit to 1200 with a +5° on each side and it didn’t work so well. I pulled out the Spyderco UF next and with one swipe on each side it does an ok job of cutting phone book paper, but it doesn’t really shave arm hair that well.

I’m looking forward to seeing how it holds up in real world edc cutting. However, I do believe HH you hit the nail on the head with the right idea of only increasing the angle +2-4° on each side. The edge that is on it may just be a little too blunt for my taste. So next time I think I’ll only do 2° Like you recommended. Thanks again Heavy Handed and Obsessed With Edges! Y’all are always a must read!
 
Old Lincoln Pipe Welder said:
So I just put a micro on my Bugout in 20CV. I used my Atoma plates and I went from the 600 grit to 1200 with a +5° on each side and it didn’t work so well. I pulled out the Spyderco UF next and with one swipe on each side it does an ok job of cutting phone book paper, but it doesn’t really shave arm hair that well.

I’m looking forward to seeing how it holds up in real world edc cutting. However, I do believe HH you hit the nail on the head with the right idea of only increasing the angle +2-4° on each side. The edge that is on it may just be a little too blunt for my taste. So next time I think I’ll only do 2° Like you recommended. Thanks again Heavy Handed and Obsessed With Edges! Y’all are always a must read!
Click to expand...

When freehanding I'm certain the micro is closer to 5 degrees per side.

With a guide at 2 degrees the micro winds up about twice as wide to the naked eye as my freehand ones.

I recently upgraded the grinder on my Mutitool 2x48 belt grinder attachment and have been tinkering with all the settings on my guide. Going from a 220 Norton Bluefire belt to either a diamond jointering stone or the Ultrasharp 3k reliably makes a tree-topping edge using a 26° + 2° per side micro. This is consistent with my freehand work. Using the Atoma 400/1200 combo leaves the edge not quite tree-topping but still very sharp and durable

Using the plate is a little more challenging as it really shows any inconsistencies from the belt that are entirely absent from freehand edges. Am going to open it up a bit to a 3-4° per side micro and see if that is not a little bit quicker. The more shallow the micro, the more passes it takes to thin the cutting edge.
 
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I couldn’t leave my edge alone when we got back home. I’m much happier with the 15-17° micro! But I’m definitely going to try more strokes on the UF and thin the cutting edge even more!
HeavyHanded said:
When freehanding I'm certain the micro is closer to 5 degrees per side.

With a guide at 2 degrees the micro winds up about twice as wide to the naked eye as my freehand ones.

I recently upgraded the grinder on my Mutitool 2x48 belt grinder attachment and have been tinkering with all the settings on my guide. Going from a 220 Norton Bluefire belt to either a diamond jointering stone or the Ultrasharp 3k reliably makes a tree-topping edge using a 26° + 2° per side micro. This is consistent with my freehand work. Using the Atoma 400/1200 combo leaves the edge not quite tree-topping but still very sharp and durable

Using the plate is a little more challenging as it really shows any inconsistencies from the belt that are entirely absent from freehand edges. Am going to open it up a bit to a 3-4° per side micro and see if that is not a little bit quicker. The more shallow the micro, the more passes it takes to thin the cutting edge
Click to expand...
 
Need some advise. I have an old knife which needs sharpening and it has a 22.5 DPS bevels. Is it feasible or advisable to re profile it at 20 DPS then put 22.5 DPS bevel on it. Thanks in advance.
 
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