Microbevels

Something tells me you could give Ernie a river rock, and it would only take an hour or so to do the same job.
 
me2- yep, i think you're right. I watched him closely touch up an abused benchmade (forget the model, but it was 154cm steel). No magic or secrets, he's actually fairly slow on the stone. Edge Leading, handle to tip.Told me he's totally concentrating on being consistent with the angle. Now- when he steeled it, yea it looks to me like he's super fast.

anyways, my plan is to get good at this method, before moving on to other methods. Eventually, I may not need the long lasting edge he wants...I'm not cutting 8 hours a day.. and at this point I welcome an excuse to sharpen anything (both for the fun of it and to gain experience). I'm sure I'll be lusting after a mirror finish edge soon enough :)
 
Bobo, thanks for sharing this information, and sorry for the long delay in replying. Your butcher friend is obviously referring to the same experience I wrote about up above, and after another nine months of using this method I have really nothing more to add. I have changed nothing in my method of steeling at a much higher angle than sharpening (about 17° with a stone, and more like 25° with a steel) and still am very impressed with the results. In my opinion, this method works best with high quality stainless steel, and the thinner the blade, the better, although even thicker blades profit from it. My wife uses stainless steel paring knives from Solingen with very thin blades, and when I steel them this way on my smoothest flat steel, I actually can shave hair off my arm.
 
I've had a good experience regarding micro-bevels and different people's opinion of them. One opinion was of Murray Carter's. Due to his expertise and what he said I started thinking about the subject quite a bit. And I had already thought about it a lot. So here goes.

I've been working HARD on improving my sharpening skill for 2 or more years. Getting info from everyone I could and trying things I've learned a lot. And my edges are showing improvement. In that timeframe I've been putting a micro-bevel on about everything I sharpen. Except for paring knives which have a blade thin enough that one bevel is sometimes not as wide as some micro-bevels. One thing to consider is how big is a micro-bevel? I like to say micro when the bevel is barely visible to the naked eye. When it is easily seen I like to call it an edge bevel. Just two terms to indicate the size in addition to the fact that it is at a higher angle than the rest of what I would call the "edge" which is normally two angles for me. Edge bevel and back bevel. This seems to be how most people sharpen an edge on most knives. I'm saying that because Murray's terms are primary edge and secondary edge (or bevel). I sent him one of my knives to sharpen for free. First sharpening for free is an offer he makes to anyone who subscribes to his sharpening tips. I did have to pay $15 for return, insured shipping. The blade was M4 sharpened with a back bevel of about 12 dps and an edge bevel (easily seen) or around 17-18 dps. Before I sent it to him I touched up the edge on an 8k Shapton glass stone. It was as sharp as I have ever gotten a knife given my ability. One of those final touches that you try your very best. The reason I wanted to send him a knife to sharpen was so I could see/feel/use an edge sharpened by someone other than me. No one I know sharpens better than I do. Do you know why? I don't have any friends (in-person friends :)) who are into knives. :) Anyway, when he got the knife he replied that I had a micro-bevel on an otherwise well sharpened and polished PRIMARY EDGE. Then he said that a micro-bevel degrades cutting performance. READ IT AGAIN if you missed it. Degrades. Makes worse. Isn't as good. I was very surprised he said that. I had no idea anyone would feel this way. Especially someone of his experience and skill with all aspects of knives. But to actually understand why he feels this way we need to look at the way he refers to the edge and blade. The knife I sent him was a FFG blade that is thin at the edge. So, from edge to spine I use the terms edge-bevel, back-bevel then full-flat grind. Mr. Carter's terms are primary edge (with a micro-bevel) and secondary bevel. He refers to the Full-Flat Grind as the secondary bevel. So in his opinion the micro-bevel degrades the cutting performance of the PRIMARY edge. So, if I understand him correctly he would only put one bevel on the edge of this FFG knife blade giving him a primary and secondary angle. Not two angles then the blade grind. I looked at the specs on a knife of his I love. One of the specs is called SECONDARY: This he calls FLAT. The knife has a FFG blade by the description most people I've encountered use. Ok. Now that I understands his terms I agree with him that a micro-bevel degrades cutting performance. But, by the terms I have learned to use I was calling my micro-bevel the primary edge. The rest of the edge (polished part) I called the back-bevel. The rest of the blade is grind by my thinking. The moral of this experience is I started thinking "why use a micro-bevel or any very small edge bevel on a knife edge? Why not just continue sharpening the lower angle until the bevels meet (apex) forming a sharp edge"? Below are what I came up with. The reasons are the same as many people already have and nothing new. But for anyone pretty new to sharpening knives it may help as well as convey (to all) how differently different people think about an edge as well as how differently they use words, terms and phrases to talk about them. Using different terms is confusing when on forums because of different backgrounds, even languages we may speak. Some people even use translators on the pc because they don't speak english at all. No telling what a computer translator will do with words. :)

My thoughts on when and why to use a micro-bevel: My opinion only and no better than anyone's.

First, and the one thing that will never change. The thinner a blade and lower an edge angle the better the knife will cut. Fact as far as I know. However, some uses for a knife demand a stronger, thicker blade and a higher edge angle. This is where the variations come in to play.

The very edge (apex) angle needs to be high enough that it won't chip, fold, etc. when used as the knife is intended to be used. Doesn't matter what you call it. Primary edge. Edge angle. Micro-bevel. Doesn't matter what we call it.

Above the first angle is the rest of the blade. Maybe it's a FFG. Maybe it's a hollow grind, saber, etc. For simplicity let's assume it's a FFG blade. After you have established an edge angle (primary) if the blade is very thin at the edge you may not need an additional lower angle which I would call a back bevel. Secondary bevel is probably the most common term. Not sure. If the blade is thicker than needed for the cutting I'm planning on doing with the knife I will put another bevel at a lower angle above the edge (primary) angle. This back bevel is only to "thin" the blade. Why? Because a thinner blade cuts better, no matter what. Unless it breaks because it's too thin. :)

So when re-profiling an edge my plan would be to decide the primary edge angle that will be as low as possible and still hold up to the tasks planned for that knife. After that I would decide on putting a lower angle back-bevel on the knife or not. This decision is based on the thickness of the blade and the intended use. Anything further will be determined per knife by me as well as you guys on your knives.

If Mr. Carter has a FFG knife ready to put the first edge on he may do this. Sharpen the primary edge (apex) and consider it finished because of the intended use for the knife. He will call this one bevel the primary edge and it is at an angle high enough to hold up to the intended use. Then if someone puts an additional micro-bevel on the edge the cutting performance will be degraded. Why? Because a lower angle always cuts better. Always. If the new edge apex (micro-bevel) angle is HIGHER than needed for the intended use, cutting performance will be degraded.

NOTE: My description of what Mr. Carter might do is only an assumption on my part. But it is my understanding after the experience of sending him a knife to sharpen and his comments on it and my checking out his description of one of his knives on his site. Oh yeah guess what? The knife came back very very sharp. :) Murray Carter is an exceptional knife sharpener. Who knew??? :D It will cost almost $20 for shipping to and back but I am glad I spent the $. Couple of benifits. First is to know what a VERY sharp knife feels like and be able to use it. His comments on my edge were very informative and gave me a lot to think about. The one bad thing is it prompted me to post this and if you have read this far, sorry. :) Actually, one of my reasons for sending him a knife was to get it back and get a better understanding of how to use the 3 finger test of sharpness he likes. I figured I'd have a knife that passes the test to compare with the knives I have tried the test on. I'm still at a loss about how this test will tell me how sharp a knife is. Maybe I'll figure it out one day. That's another issue and thread thank god. :D

Finally, one other reason I can think of to use a micro-bevel. When performing touchups it's faster to hit the edge with a few strokes at a slightly higher angle. But if the angle is already at the best angle for the intended cutting, increasing the angle for a micro-bevel will degrade cutting performance. Now here's what I believe about this. How much degredation?????? IMO a tiny micro-bevel at a slightly higher angle won't lower the cutting performance enough to matter for 99% of cutting tasks. In a laboratory performing cutting test maybe a difference can be measured. But for someone fileting a fish or cutting sticks to start the camp fire? Doubt if they will notice anything different. I know I couldn't.

One thing I forgot to mention. Different type blade steels and intended use will effect the decisions on edge angles and bevels I suppose.

Oops. I hit submit before I was finished. Almost finished though.

Last thing to consider I guess is what you use to sharpen. I free-hand and use an Edge Pro. With the EP we can put a micro-bevel on a knife that is exact as well as any other bevel. Free hand sharpening always produces at least a slight convex edge or bevel. So, the edge apex angle will always be at least a little bit higher than the angle at the top of that bevel. So, we might be able to consider the very edge apex of a convex edge a micro-bevel making it easier to touchup than one created with an EP, WE or other system with established, controlled angle capability. Again, that's another thread.

I hope what I wrote is understandable. Can't swear everything is completely correct as I'm no pro.

Jack
 
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@Jackknifeh
Thank you for your interesting post. I will gladly go along with your helpful definition of a microbevel as one that is just barely visible to the naked eye (under good lighting).

I had heard of Murray Carter before but had never seen his numerous YouTube contributions, thus I spent the past week learning from him. After duplicating his method of sharpening a straight razor, especally using a flat strop rather than a belt suspended in mid-air, I immediately achieved much better results.

As far as knives are concerned, Carter appears to do three things that separate him from the mainstream.
1. He grinds down the entire side of the blade, at least somewhat, making the blade thinner each time it is sharpened.
2. Then he creates the cutting edge by raising the spine of the knife slightly and grinding in the direction of that spine, something that is rarely seen in public, or usually done only when stropping on leather to remove the last remnants of the burr. He thus begins the process of burr removal earlier than most. It obviously works that way too.
3. His terminology regarding primary and secondary edges or bevels is that of John Juranitch, owner of Razor Edge Systems in Ely, Minnesota, who speaks from the point of view of the tomato: The cutting edge splitting that tomato skin is, in this view, the primary edge; the full flat grind or hollow grind backing it up is the secondary. Elsewhere on earth this is usually seen from the perspective of the person doing the grinding: For him or her, the initial grind is the primary one, the first one tackled; the edge created that leads to the apex and the tomato skin is the second one ground and thus the secondary edge. In the end the nomenclature makes absolutely no difference, but we do have to know from the start of the discussion which language is being used.

Carter's angles are standard and, as we all know, very useful: around 10-12° per side for the "secondary" edge, and around 17° for the "primary" or cutting edge. I have completely hand-forged two knives under careful supervision of a master, and both times the full flat ground was done at 10°. It took me many, many hours to do it with different files, but I got there. The cutting edge, done with stones, amounted to about 15°. The results are impressive.

I personally like Carter's way of presenting things and know that his way of sharpening is excellent indeed.

Getting back to microbevels, Murray Carter's opinion that a microbevel degrades the edge is pure logic. Adding a 20+° per side bevel to a 17° bevel amounts to dulling a knife. HOWEVER!: Carter does the same thing when he grinds a 17° per side bevel on top of a 10° bevel. Why does he do that? Because, I assume, grinding at 10° all the way to the tomato skin will make a straight razor out of your knife and will make its edge collapse when colliding with the first carrot. The second reason is that 17° (I'm always talking per side here) also makes for a very sharp knife, one that will withstand much more pressure than 10° and is still sharp enough to shave with, as he shows us. Adding a, say, 23° microbevel to the 17°, with 10° behind that, will first of all make it look like a diamond (all those facets gleaming at us), and secondly it will still be more than sharp enough to work in any kitchen. Finally, -- and this is what I think is going on here, and why everyone who has ever seriously worked with a microbevel seems to be pleased with the results -- a knife blade is what the Germans call a Gesamtkunstwerk, a total work of art that can be appreciated only in its entirety.

A knife's capacity to slice loads of carrots and turnips depends not only on the relative sharpness and stability of the cutting edge, but also on the shape and condition of the remainder of the blade that follows it on its way through those vegetables. 23° per side used to be standard procedure for Buck hunting knives. I stll have the information that Buck provided with their soft and hard Arkansas sharpening kits way back in 1972, when I bought those great stones, and there it says "23°". I can prove it. Does anyone here think that in 1972, hunters and fishermen and soldiers were complaining that their knives were dull after being sharpened the way Buck recommended? One of the reasons so many people were so very pleased with those results was that Buck sold hollow ground knives. The rest of the blade that followed that 23° per side edge was nicely hollowed out and very thin indeed.

To make a very long story short, that is what I think is the story with microbevels. The total geometry of the blade has to enter into the equation. A somewhat wider angle at the cutting edge is followed by a narrower one, and an even narrower one follows that. The cutting edge itself must of course be capable of splitting the cells of whatever is being sliced (c. 23° per side still does a fine job, thank you), and the blade following that, due to its finely ground and polished bevels, assumes a supporting role.

As I said, I do most of my kitchen work with good quality stainless steel German (and Chinese) kitchen knives. Most of them have a full flat ground of about 10° per side, followed by a 15-17° per side highly polished bevel. On top of that I use a non-aggressive flat sharpening steel to add a microbevel of about 25° per side on the very cutting edge. I've been doing this for years and I absolutely love the results.

Sam
 
Can you elaborate on what you consider a full flat grind? My old kitchen knives are 2 to 3 degrees per side, assuming we are talking about the same thing.
 
me2, you're right, we're talking about the same thing. What I mean by full flat grind is the method used on many knives to taper it down from the spine to the cutting edge, creating one full flat surface in the process, a flat, tapering sheet of steel. The greater the distance between those two points, the lower the angle. Tapering a hunting knife 1 1/2 inches in height from spine to edge will require an angle of around 10°, while a larger cook's knife or a rectangular Chinese all-purpose kitchen knife with its 3 or more inches from spine to cutting edge will have a much lower angle. 2-3° would be a good estimate, depending on the thickness of the spine. My favorite kitchen knife is just that, a Chinese stainless steel rectangle with a handle that I use for 98% of all kitchen work. The blade measures 3x7 inches, or 8x18 cm when viewed from the side, and it's not quite 2 mm thick at the spine. So I have to correct myself regarding this knife. Starting at the cutting edge it sports a c. 25° microbevel (created by a non-aggressive flat sharpening steel, which I think makes a difference), then a 15-17° bevel created by three of my stones, then maybe a 2-3° full flat grind going all the way up to the spine. A very fine kitchen tool.

Sam

P.S. Just discovered I may be using the wrong term (sorry, I live in Germany and am most familiar with the local terms). What I refered to up above while talking about my kitchen knives is possibly known in the U.S. as a V-grind: The sides of the blade are flat but taper together at a constant rate from spine to cutting edge, thus it resembles a V when viewed from the front. A "full flat grind" apparently often refers to a blade whose sides remain parallel from the spine to just before the cutting edge, and a "high flat grind", often found on Scandanavian hunting knives, is when the tapering process begins about halfway between the spine and the cutting edge. I suppose that on a forum of this scope there is a drawing somewhere showing the parts of a blade and the standard terms used to describe them. I just haven't found it yet.
 
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I checked my kitchen knife, salvaged from an old 10" long chef's knife. It's 2" wide, 1/8" thick, and tapers from spine to edge. The grind is about 2 degrees per side. A hunting knife 1.5" wide and 1/4" thick is less than 5 degrees per side. I've tried 10 degree per side primary bevels in the kitchen and they just didn't work well. You may find them satisfactory. I have cutting bevels I use for kitchen work less than 10 degrees per side though.
 
me2 said:
I've tried 10 degree per side primary bevels in the kitchen and they just didn't work well.
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I agree again. The greater the angle of that V-grind, the less fun we have slicing things in the kitchen. The knives I made required a 10° bevel because of the relationship between the thickness of the spine and the distance between it and the cutting edge. Heading up from the edge, the blade thickens a bit too much to make it a great tool in the kitchen, but as a hunting knife it is great. The rectangluar Chinese knife is thin to begin with and much thinner down near the edge. That's the point I want to make. The thinner the blade is that follows the edge through those carrots, the more sense a microbevel makes.
 
Novaculite said:
me2, you're right, we're talking about the same thing. What I mean by full flat grind is the method used on many knives to taper it down from the spine to the cutting edge, creating one full flat surface in the process, a flat, tapering sheet of steel. The greater the distance between those two points, the lower the angle. Tapering a hunting knife 1 1/2 inches in height from spine to edge will require an angle of around 10°, while a larger cook's knife or a rectangular Chinese all-purpose kitchen knife with its 3 or more inches from spine to cutting edge will have a much lower angle. 2-3° would be a good estimate, depending on the thickness of the spine. My favorite kitchen knife is just that, a Chinese stainless steel rectangle with a handle that I use for 98% of all kitchen work. The blade measures 3x7 inches, or 8x18 cm when viewed from the side, and it's not quite 2 mm thick at the spine. So I have to correct myself regarding this knife. Starting at the cutting edge it sports a c. 25° microbevel (created by a non-aggressive flat sharpening steel, which I think makes a difference), then a 15-17° bevel created by three of my stones, then maybe a 2-3° full flat grind going all the way up to the spine. A very fine kitchen tool.

Sam

P.S. Just discovered I may be using the wrong term (sorry, I live in Germany and am most familiar with the local terms). What I refered to up above while talking about my kitchen knives is possibly known in the U.S. as a V-grind: The sides of the blade are flat but taper together at a constant rate from spine to cutting edge, thus it resembles a V when viewed from the front. A "full flat grind" apparently often refers to a blade whose sides remain parallel from the spine to just before the cutting edge, and a "high flat grind", often found on Scandanavian hunting knives, is when the tapering process begins about halfway between the spine and the cutting edge. I suppose that on a forum of this scope there is a drawing somewhere showing the parts of a blade and the standard terms used to describe them. I just haven't found it yet.
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Interesting. That goes to show that we shouldn't assume that we are all using the same definitions. For me,

Full flat - what you consider a V grind, but with an edge bevel. With no edge bevel, I would call that a "zero grind".
High flat - a small area near the spine where the sides are parallel before they start approaching each other - a full flat that doesn't go all the way to the spine, and still has an edge bevel
Saber - a high flat with the transition from parallel to taper moved down about halfway between the edge and the spine, still has an edge bevel.
Scandi (US) - a saber grind that has no edge bevel. I call it (US) because most knives from Scandinavia have that edge bevel.
 
Im not exactly sure if my question belongs here.. but there it is : Is there ANY difference in anything (except the appearance) of used grid for the bevel? For example is there a difference between knifes with sharpened bevel at 200 grit, microbevel 2000 and a knife with 2000 bevel and 2000 microbevel? I know that more toothy edge may be better for some tasks but in this case Im talking about the part of the knife which does not cut.
 
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Marblo said:
Im not exactly sure if my question belongs here.. but there it is : Is there ANY difference in anything (except the appearance) of used grid for the bevel? For example is there a difference between knifes with sharpened bevel at 200 grit, microbevel 2000 and a knife with 2000 bevel and 2000 microbevel? I know that more toothy edge may be better for some tasks but in this case Im talking about the part of the knife which does not cut.
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I believe a coarser grit back bevel (200 grit) will not cut as well. The material being cut will determine how much cutting performance is lost. Opening a letter would not be any different. But cutting cardboard you could tell a difference. There would probably be a bigger difference when cutting wood. If the bevel were rough it would be like sliding a piece of sandpaper across a piece of wood. But, if you finish the back bevel (the one that does not cut) with a high grit stone for a smoother, possibly mirror finish the edge will have less resistance to going through the wood because the steel is smooth.

How much difference there would be between a smooth bevel and a rough one may not be all that much for most jobs but I normally finish the back bevel very smooth. I'd finish with a 4k or 8k stone. I'm even going to get a 16k stone pretty soon if the wallet allows. :)

I doubt if most people could tell a big difference in the two finishes but, if we know or believe a smoother bevel will cut better we might as well go ahead and finish it smooth. After finishing the back bevel smooth the cutting edge bevel can be coarser or smooth depending on your personal desires and what you are cutting. The edge bevel can be touched up fast an easy. Or you can change it easily if you want since the angle on the edge is higher. You won't need to touch the smooth bevel with a stone. All this is just my opinion. Sorry to be so long winded (or long keyboarded :)).

Jack
 
Interesting reading :-)
The finest stone I have is 1K + leather strop. 1K already makes quite mirror and I was thinking if going to finer stone would make the knife cut better ... or at least that much difference I would notice.
 
Marblo said:
Interesting reading :-)
The finest stone I have is 1K + leather strop. 1K already makes quite mirror and I was thinking if going to finer stone would make the knife cut better ... or at least that much difference I would notice.
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I couldn't say for sure of course not knowing what type of stone you have but the 1k stones I've used can put a shiny finish on the bevel but not a mirror finish. I'm using Shapton glass water stones. The leather strop can finish a bevel really nice but saying "leather" still leave a lot of variations because of different conditions of leathers. Horse hide, cow hide, kangaroo hide, etc. Then there is the abrasive you use on the leather. Anyway, a finer grit stone might make the knife cut better if are cutting something like wood. A smoother bevel will "travel" through the wood easier than a coarser bevel. A coarser bevel could be compared to fine grit sandpaper. This would also apply to the very edge as well. A smooth edge from using a 4k and higher grit is better for some things. Wood chisels always have very smooth, even mirror finishes and the edges are very smooth instead of coarse or toothy. A coarser or toothier edge is better for slicing a tomato because the little tiny teeth initially slice through the tomato skin whereas a very smooth edge, even a very sharp smooth edge might need a bit more pressure before it cuts through the skin. The tiny teeth are like a small saw blade. Even when the teeth are too small to see with the naked eye. All that being said, I don't notice much difference between a toothy or smooth edge on my pocket knives because mainly because I never know what I'm going to be cutting. But for a chef cutting food for hours the difference can make a difference in his day. :)

Right now I am getting a mirror finish with an 8k Shapton glass stone. Mirror to the naked eye. I am going to get a 16k stone after I buy a couple of knives I've got my eyes on. The 16k puts a really nice mirror finish on the edge. I'm thinking of the bevel that I can see a perfect reflection of the branches in the tree above my head when outside.

So if it makes a difference big enough for you to care about is a personal decision. I always have more than one knife on me so if I wanted to I could sharpen one and finish the edge with a 1k stone to have a somewhat toothy edge. Or the 320 grit for a really toothy edge. But most of the time I go up to the 4k and sometimes the 8k. I love the finish on the bevel to be as smooth as possible because it cuts a little better but I also love the looks of a very shiny or even a mirror finish I could use to shave with (if the bevel were wider :)). Until about 5-6 years ago I only used a medium grit arkansas stone. I don't know what grit it was but it was on the coarser side of coarse/smooth.Sharpening for me is as much a hobby as it is to ensure I have a sharp knife. The money and time I've spent learning to put different type edges on a knife have not made my life easier based on the fact that my knife "might" be cutting better. I just enjoy it. The benifit I get when cutting is just an extra bonus.

Did that make any sense at all? :)

Jack
 
Absolutely makes sense. Maybe in time I will get finer stones (2k+) but Im short of money now anyway and theyre pretty pricey :) Its a shame I dont have two identical knifes so I could test the cutting performance between back bevel grits like 200 vs 1000 :)
 
Recently I noticed on all of my knifes, that after a stroke on a hone the other side is like "dull" - for example one side is like crazy-sharp (2500grit) - shaving hair but the other looks like dull. After one stroke on the other side the side which was super sharp now does not shave but the other side shaves. Hope you understand :-) I never noticed this before - Im not sure if this is normal?
I know that it looks like Im describing a burr but there just cant be any.
 
Oh yes there can. The can be deceptively small and stubborn. What kind of steels does this happen on?
 
Marblo said:
Recently I noticed on all of my knifes, that after a stroke on a hone the other side is like "dull" - for example one side is like crazy-sharp (2500grit) - shaving hair but the other looks like dull. After one stroke on the other side the side which was super sharp now does not shave but the other side shaves. Hope you understand :-) I never noticed this before - Im not sure if this is normal?
I know that it looks like Im describing a burr but there just cant be any.
Click to expand...

A burr is exactly what it is; your description is virtually a textbook definition of a burr (also 'wire edge'). If you think about it in the context of taking an edge that's already very thin or fine, and then making even one additional pass with a tad too much pressure, a burr is precisely what will form when the edge rolls to one side, away from the pressure exerted. The edge feeling 'sharp' from one side, and 'dull' from the other, is the proof that the edge has indeed rolled to one side, forming a burr. The 'sharp' side is the side to which the weakened edge (burr) has rolled. One more stroke from the opposite side 'flips' the burr, so the 'sharp' and 'dull' sides will exchange positions.


David
 
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Interesting that this thread is still alive after years!

One of the advantages for me using a Microbevel is that I can get it sharper easier/faster. Not that I am sloppy sharpening the cutting bevel before applying that microbevel but once cleaned up, applying very few strokes at a higher angle (on a very fine diamond stone for instance) with very little pressure, checking the edge 3-finger/lupe/papercutting etc. after each stroke and I can literaly witness the apex getting sharper to the point I need (almost reliably tree topping hair at wrist). I would have a much, much harder time to reach that sharpness by just cleaning up the main cutting bevel und would probably not succeed to reach this sharpness directly off the coarse side of my Norton Crystolon stone for instance. This is all freehand of course and no stropping. If I used a guided system I would probably not do this!
 
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Forgive me if this has been covered; I didn't have time to read the entire thread. What is the minimum angle difference that still allows a microbevel to be useful? Is 5 DPS enough? Should it be more like 10? Thanks!
 
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